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Old 07-18-2005, 01:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by syntheticgerbil
He's just a stupid whitey to sell to other stupid whitey suburbanites to make them feel tough.
Nice job putting all that emphasis on race. There are only maybe three white rappers who have actually got to the top. Marshall Mathers, Lil Wyte, and Paul Wall. The second in that list happens to be my favorite rap artist and he is the most increadible MC I've heard in years. Dare I say, better than Eminem. His 2003 album, Doubt Me Now, implies just what the title states he like the other two rappers have been knocked down because of the color of their skin. Unlike most MCs, he's actually seen blood on his shirt and has fought and fought to mild popularity. If you ask me, the white rappers around are a hell of a lot more tough than the black guys.

Tell me again why you feel this way. Why you've ignored the other stuff I said. Right now, you're going around in circles. I've read the website. What I call this "stuff": business. It's not just the music industry that comes off as an evil corporation. Huge car companies (Ford), insurance companies (State Farm), even game companies (EA) all operate in questionable ways. If you want to make a big deal about how evil the music indusrty is, then why not other huge corparations?

And rappers who earn it? You gotta be ****ing kidding me. You know how Eminem clawed his way to the top in the underground doing rap battles, being persicuted by his peers because of the color of his skin? Every rapper who is on top now has earned it with hard work and have worked they're whole lives to earn respect. You think that all Eminem's fans are little eight-year-old white kids? You are obviously in no position to judge him when you don't know a damn thing about him.

Really, what you are implying is that any rapper who is under a record label has no talent. Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, 2pac, Notorious BIG, TI, Ice Cube, NWA, Lynch Mob, 3 6 Mafia... If I had all day, the list would be tremendious. Blood, sweat, tears. The three things that have been sheaded on the path to the big time. They've all suceeded and they'll be damned I a record label will hold them back.

Last edited by SamNMax; 07-18-2005 at 02:25 AM.
 
Old 07-18-2005, 02:48 AM   #22
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Rap music

All it is missing is a "C" - Must be a silent one.
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Old 07-18-2005, 03:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamNMax
Nice job putting all that emphasis on race. There are only maybe three white rappers who have actually got to the top. Mathers, Lil Wyte, and Paul Wall. The second in that list happens to be my favorite rap artist and he is the most increadible MC I've heard in years. Dare I say, better than Eminem. His 2003 album, Doubt Me Now, implies just what the title states he like the other two rappers have been knocked down because of the color of their skin. Unlike most MCs, he's actually seen blood on his shirt and has fought and fought to mild popularity. If you ask me, the white rappers around are a hell of a lot more tough than the black guys.
You're being ridiculous, there are still tons of white rappers that aren't on major labels that are much more skilled and more intelligent. I'm guessing "the top" for you means making it on the radio and getting in the Top 10 at MTV. Neither of those matter, as who decides who goes where is money. And as for three white rappers, why are you forgetting MCA, Ad-Rock, and Mike D?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamNMax
Tell me again why you feel this way. Why you've ignored the other stuff I said. Right now, you're going around in circles. I've read the website. What I call this "stuff": business. It's not just the music industry that comes off as an evil corporation. Huge car companies (Ford), insurance companies (State Farm), even game companies (EA) all operate in questionable ways. If you want to make a big deal about how evil the music indusrty is, then why not other huge corparations?
Well considering that is the current topic of the thread, it would be logical. Not as if I don't have a problem with everything else you mentioned besides that. Although the first two aren't creative fields,(in the traditional sense) so it works different. Music isn't synonymous with business. Music is music. Business makes music homogeneous, ignorant, bland, and nothing more than a product to sucker in new buyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamNMax
Really, what you are implying is that any rapper who is under a record label has no talent. Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, 2pac, Notorious BIG, TI, Ice Cube, NWA, Lynch Mob, 3 6 Mafia... If I had all day, the list would be tremendious. Blood, sweat, tears. The three things that have been sheaded on the path to the big time. They've all suceeded and they'll be damned I a record label will hold them back.
Pretty much. Everyone you listed is a tool. If you don't know it and want to be stubborn about it, then fine. There's so much more out there than that narrow amount you just listed. Suburbia's word of mouth and MTV isn't the end all on the possibilities on what can be done with a music genre. It's funny how you mention blood when the corporate artists you mentioned AREN'T (according to you) supposed to be the ones using violence to help sell their image according to whatever the fat executive with the cigar says. (Rick Rubin anyone?) And I think you should read the website again. For real this time.

Last edited by syntheticgerbil; 07-18-2005 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 07-18-2005, 04:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucien21
Rap music

All it is missing is a "C" - Must be a silent one.
Think that up all by yourself? Because I've NEVER heard it before.

Commercial, sellout, indie, low budget, superstar... whatever. Eminem's music is fun to me. It's not high art, but not everything has to be. It's not Talib Kweli (or, for that matter, Xiu Xiu, Tom Waits, Autechre, or whoever buys indie cred these days), but I don't care. It entertains me, and there's enough true art out there that I can allow myself some aural junk food once in a while.

And honestly, this whole "if you make lots of money, you're a tool" thing is annoying. One doesn't have to be poor to make good art. Shakespeare wrote plays on commission for royalty, and Michelangelo didn't paint the Sistine Chapel for kicks. Great art can, and has, emerged from commercial environments and the desire to make some money. Music is music. Judge the product, not the process. Shutting out any music because of the budget spent on it (high or low) doesn't do yourself any favors.
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Old 07-18-2005, 04:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by sethsez
Think that up all by yourself? Because I've NEVER heard it before.
Probably because rap has adled your brain.
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Old 07-18-2005, 04:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SamNMax
Once again, someone makes that accusation without hearing at least five of the artist in question's songs.

supposedly he's retiring, by the way.
You know, you should really stop making unwarranted assumptions about what people have or haven't heard. Just a suggestion.

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Old 07-18-2005, 04:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Lucien21
Probably because rap has adled your brain.
Cute, but my music of choice is rock (mostly indie) with some IDM on the side. Try again.

Understanding the appeal of and talent required for a certain genre doesn't always have to mean you like it. I wish more people would understand the difference between "I don't like it" and "it's bad."
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucien21
Rap music
What's the word "music" doing there?
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:31 AM   #29
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Not this retarded discussion again. I hate people jumping all over a genre because they have a narrow viewpoint of it. Doesn't THAT sound familiar? Well, "all adventure games a recrap becos I plaied one yeears ago and it was teh suxx0r2 no fighting at all very boring.". This kind of commentary is bred of ignorance and has no respect to the WIDE RANGE of music an entire GENRE delivers.

And quit calling it "rap music". Hiphop is the genre and it encompasses a wider sound than you lame-o's give it credit for.

Lucien, you should know better.
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:42 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by squarejawhero
Lucien, you should know better.
Sure, but where's the fun in that


Still not a fan of rap or hiphop or whatever you want to call it.
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by squarejawhero
I hate people jumping all over a genre because they have a narrow viewpoint of it.
Yeah, because it couldn't be possible that someone just genuinely doesn't like rap music.

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Old 07-18-2005, 09:04 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by syntheticgerbil
You're being ridiculous, there are still tons of white rappers that aren't on major labels that are much more skilled and more intelligent. I'm guessing "the top" for you means making it on the radio and getting in the Top 10 at MTV. Neither of those matter, as who decides who goes where is money. And as for three white rappers, why are you forgetting MCA, Ad-Rock, and Mike D?
Nope. "The top" means getting the respect they diserve and stop being persecuted. And as for the Beastie Boys, well, they haven't done anything in a while and I doubt they will again for a long time. And besides, they belong to a label, too. What makes them so special? Because they're not gangster? So what? There have always been different types of rap, and they've choosen the alternative. But that doesn't make them any better than anyone else in the industry. As much as I don't like it, labels sign gangster rappers because they sell. But the truth is, I don't care if labels do this. Even if there are a few pretenders out there, it doesn't matter to me. I just like the genre because, well, I always had. Even in this age of white kids having to like punk and rock. Because there will always be room for great artists in the industry.

Still, the choice of the word "whitey" is still questionable.

Quote:
Well considering that is the current topic of the thread, it would be logical. Not as if I don't have a problem with everything else you mentioned besides that. Although the first two aren't creative fields,(in the traditional sense) so it works different. Music isn't synonymous with business. Music is music. Business makes music homogeneous, ignorant, bland, and nothing more than a product to sucker in new buyers.
Yes, of course. Just wanted to make sure we understand eachother here. And yes, business does water down music. But I still stand by my opinion rap music under labels is still quality music. You can disagree with that. After all, it is just an opinion. If you want to bad mouth this music by just looking at the stereotype, then that doesn't concern me.

Quote:
Pretty much. Everyone you listed is a tool. If you don't know it and want to be stubborn about it, then fine. There's so much more out there than that narrow amount you just listed. Suburbia's word of mouth and MTV isn't the end all on the possibilities on what can be done with a music genre. It's funny how you mention blood when the corporate artists you mentioned AREN'T (according to you) supposed to be the ones using violence to help sell their image according to whatever the fat executive with the cigar says. (Rick Rubin anyone?) And I think you should read the website again. For real this tim.e
Let me ask you something. Ever actually listen to these guys and not just read about them or pull the "record label? Pft. They suck" card? How are they untalented, I ask you. How, just because of a name on their CD, does that make them automatically a no-talent? If I don't know it and want to be stubborn about it? That's sort of hippicritical from you, isn't it? Have you ever heard more than one song by any of these guys? Before you judge me for liking certain artist, take the time to research them yourself. I don't care if there's "so much more out there". I'm well aware of that. If you are going to argue with me for liking a sort of music, then at least have a wide understanding of said music. And then you go off about MTV, though I've never, not even once, said anything about MTV. I've only watched one thing on MTV in my life, and it isn't music related in anyway shape or form. You really think I like these guys because they're popular? No. I don't. I like them because they're talented. But you don't belive this because of the stupid steretype put on them by websites and kids who are into the punk trend. And the blood thing. I was simply stating that not everyone under a label is faking it. Lil Wyte raps about it because it has happened to him. Not because some suite told him to.

Quote:
And I think you should read the website again. For real this time.
Now, isin't that interesting. you make an accusation youself while telling me to stop making accusations, myself.

Last edited by SamNMax; 07-18-2005 at 09:10 AM.
 
Old 07-18-2005, 09:06 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mag
Yeah, because it couldn't be possible that someone just genuinely doesn't like rap music.

mag
No reason to start a flame war over, though.

And about me making accusations, tell me what songs you've heard by him. Synthetic didn't do it, but I'm sure you will.
 
Old 07-18-2005, 09:30 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by mag
Yeah, because it couldn't be possible that someone just genuinely doesn't like rap music.

mag
Locking yourself from the possibility that something might suprise you IN AN ENTIRE GENRE OF MUSIC is ignorant.

edit - maybe that's a bit harsh. But ignorance breeds contempt if you don't truly know the entirety of a wide range of musical styles within a genre. If you think rap music begins and ends with Snoop Dogg, Eminem etc. and want to base your entire opinion of it on those frontmen, then that just showcases that you don't know much about the genre. You can't just immediately discount it because from what you've heard in the mainstream isn't your cup of tea. Herbaliser might come in from the outfield and shock you. Aim will chill you to the core with Coldwater Music. Jurassic 5 will make you party like there's no tomorrow. Roots Manuva might stun you with something in his lyrics from a perspective you never understood before. Ozomatli and Ojos De Brujo will suprise you with latino hiphop mixed with traditional mexican and spanish music.

Saying all rap music is like a certain artist is like saying every FPS is like Doom, or that all computer games are the same, when in all fact you've decided you "don't like something" - without entertaining the possibility that along the way you'll get blindsided and something will come along you might really, really enjoy. It's not like you can have an "inability" to LIKE something, like some AG'ers do with action titles, and sure we have different tastes in music - but discounting someone elses without truly knowing about it is just plain rude.

I don't enjoy mainstream pop. Doesn't mean I'm not open to someone changing my mind.

I don't enjoy Prince's music, but there are tracks I like within his repertoire and if he were to suprise me, then great!

I'm not a massive fan of The White Stripes, or garage rock in general. But their last two albums clued me into how good it can be.

If you spend your life closing yourself off to possiblity then you'll never be suprised. By that I don't mean searching out albums and buying a music style that might not be your taste, but keeping an open ear to things just in case something interesting passes you by.
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:19 AM   #35
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I gotta give it up for ya, Squarejaw.
 
Old 07-18-2005, 10:24 AM   #36
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No reason to start a flame war over, though.
Who's flaming? I didn't insult anybody. I'm just saying that the idea that if someone doesn't like rap then she's just ignorant is ridiculous. Now, if your sense of self is so dependent on that single idea that any dissent is taken as a personal attack, you probably need to do a little introspection. But that's not really my problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamNMax
And about me making accusations, tell me what songs you've heard by him. Synthetic didn't do it, but I'm sure you will.
I don't know about you, but I usually don't bother learning the titles of songs unless they're songs that I like. Since I have yet to hear the Eminem song that I like, I haven't taken the time to learn any of the titles. So no, I can't make you a list of the Eminem songs that I have listened to. That doesn't mean I haven't heard his music, though.

And that's not really my point anyway. I was mostly trying to help you out by pointing out that, in my experience at least, people who make such assumptions usually end up looking pretty stupid. After all, when you assume, you just make an ass out of you and me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by squarejawhero
Saying all rap music is like a certain artist is like saying every FPS is like Doom, or that all computer games are the same, when in all fact you've decided you "don't like something" - without entertaining the possibility that along the way you'll get blindsided and something will come along you might really, really enjoy. It's not like you can have an "inability" to LIKE something, like some AG'ers do with action titles, and sure we have different tastes in music - but discounting someone elses without truly knowing about it is just plain rude.
Not all rap music is like a certain artist, no. But there are many similarities in all rap, just like there are similarities in all FPS's. That's what makes it a genre. If somebody listens to a representative sample of rap music and doesn't like any of it, then for any given rap song, there's a pretty good chance she's not going to like it. Just like there's a good chance that most of the hardcore adventure gamers here won't like the next FPS that comes out. That doesn't mean that there will never be any rap song ever that our hypothetical person likes. But even if there were, those handful of songs wouldn't change the fact that in general, that person does not like rap. There are a handful of Metallica songs that I like, but most of their stuff I think is crap. So even though I may like "Enter Sandman" and "Nothing Else Matters," I can still say that Metallica sucks because in general, they do suck.

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Old 07-18-2005, 10:26 AM   #37
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Cheers, Sam. I just can't stand the offhand slagging off of an entire musical style. I really, really love music in all its forms. Naturally, there's stuff I can't stand, but it varies between track to track. This whole "rap is crap" is such a stupid argument, it's like saying "rock sucks". Well, there's the entire genre of rock music from its roots to now completely destroyed in two words. I know rock doesn't suck as I know so many bands from that style, there's some I don't like, some I really don't enjoy for sure, but there's many bands I DO enjoy. In music, in particular, genre terms encompass so much. Hiphop, or to coin the modern term "Urban", covers rap, mixed music, spoken word, a whole host of influences from rock to soul, live music, prerecorded, electronica... just so much stuff. It's a real magpie musical style, but you can find some amazing, truly innovative stuff there. To discount it is entirely unfair.
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:38 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by mag
Who's flaming? I didn't insult anybody. I'm just saying that the idea that if someone doesn't like rap then she's just ignorant is ridiculous. Now, if your sense of self is so dependent on that single idea that any dissent is taken as a personal attack, you probably need to do a little introspection. But that's not really my problem.
You're not flaming. Me and Synthetic are. But as far as I'm concerned, the definition of a flame war is two people on an internet message board arguing with eachother and lashing out to eachothers opinions. This is pretty minor. More of a debate, I guess.


Quote:
I don't know about you, but I usually don't bother learning the titles of songs unless they're songs that I like. Since I have yet to hear the Eminem song that I like, I haven't taken the time to learn any of the titles. So no, I can't make you a list of the Eminem songs that I have listened to. That doesn't mean I haven't heard his music, though.

And that's not really my point anyway. I was mostly trying to help you out by pointing out that, in my experience at least, people who make such assumptions usually end up looking pretty stupid. After all, when you assume, you just make an ass out of you and me.
Yes, I'll admit that was rather stupid. I'm just so used to people who say Eminem sucks and never heard anything other than "Real Slim Shady", it's gotten to be a habit.
 
Old 07-18-2005, 10:43 AM   #39
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Not all rap music is like a certain artist, no. But there are many similarities in all rap, just like there are similarities in all FPS's. That's what makes it a genre. If somebody listens to a representative sample of rap music and doesn't like any of it, then for any given rap song, there's a pretty good chance she's not going to like it. Just like there's a good chance that most of the hardcore adventure gamers here won't like the next FPS that comes out. That doesn't mean that there will never be any rap song ever that our hypothetical person likes. But even if there were, those handful of songs wouldn't change the fact that in general, that person does not like rap. There are a handful of Metallica songs that I like, but most of their stuff I think is crap. So even though I may like "Enter Sandman" and "Nothing Else Matters," I can still say that Metallica sucks because in general, they do suck.

mag
Well, no, Metallica don't "suck", you just don't like the majority of their music. They're not a style either, they're a band working within a style - and as you say yourself, some tracks suprised you in one single band. But do you discount the genre of Heavy Metal because you don't like the majority of Metallica's work? Or maybe even a few bands within that genre? Truth is the genre of Heavy Metal includes some sublime musical work, virtuoso performances - even by bands like Pantera, who inbetween some real grinding (and sometimes great) tracks can suddenly break free and create something beautiful. I don't want to lock myself out from what great stuff there is and don't understand why anyone would.

Rap is a vocal performance. People can deliver rap lyrics in so many ways, rap can expound on so many topics, some of the words are as good as the best poetry you can find. Rap can compliment tracks or overbear them. Rap can be done to a beat, or a rythym in the music. You can sing rap. You can chant it. You can make it flow, you can do what the hell you want with it and make a sound your own. You might not like Snoop Dogg. But you might like Kano, Mike Skinner or Ty who rap in totally different manners. Jurassic 5 are about having fun and preaching peace, Dilated Peoples fun in a dirtier manner, Outkast are about experimentation, Pharcyde mix funk in new ways with flowing lyrics, The Fugee's created a real earthy sound with completely different lyricists and voices.

Rap can be personal, political, it can be a different view for each track. Rap can flow over the top of live performances by truly talented musicians. Rap can take old tracks and make something new when coupled with a talented turntablist. Rap is just another form of expression within music, it can be as different as night and day.

How can you turn around and say that someday you might find a rap artist you'll love? It doesn't make sense.

By the way, the comparasions in my first post were purely metaphorical. You know as well as I an adventure gamer might have an inablity to enjoy action games. Most of the people I've been in touch with over the years who keep pressing about how much they don't like action, have nearly always a few titles that suprised them too.

Music's different. Unless you're deaf or have some other condition, you can enjoy it. To shut yourself out and convince yourself you don't like something is totally different, and then to slag it off openly to people who enjoy it isn't particularly clever either. Someone who might love heavy metal may have a go at classical music, but eventually a track is going to stun them into realising that isn't the case. There's no point shutting something out with your fingers in your ears going "naanananaaanananaaa it's rubbish"... because then who's going to feel an idiot when you eventually come across a track you really like, or a group you find you enjoy, and admit so to the very people you've just taken time to annoy by expounding how rubbish it is?

After all, "people who make such assumptions usually end up looking pretty stupid".
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:50 AM   #40
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Once again, another great post.

I myself use rap to vent anger. Some of Eminem's songs, Lil Wyte, and Lil Jon and the East Side Boys, I just love because they know how to get you amped. I dare you to listen "Mosh", "Homicidal, Suicidal", or the entire Crunkjuice album without feeling the urge to beat the crap out of someone.

Boy, that's kind of unhealthy.
 
 



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