[mycroft]

Ok..a Warren Spector interview isn't exactly hot news nowadays...however there are some very interesting questions put up.Not about DX2 but about games and the industry in general.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com...y.php?id=98286

How optimistic are you about the games industry at the moment - in the UK over the last couple of weeks we've seen a number of studios close down...?

Spector: I wouldn't say I'm optimistic about the games industry [laughs]... I am hugely optimistic and hopeful about the potential of this medium. The future of games could be amazing, but the industry is a whole other story. The industry as a whole is not interested in the potential of games as a medium of communication and expression.

So I would say that you're dealing with two different things. On the one hand I'm very excited and on the other I'm not so.

Also

That attitude I think is the thing more than anything else that sets Ion Storm apart from a lot of other developers. We're not thinking about how to make games more cinematic - I couldn't care less about that. We're not about making games more like movies, we're about making games unlike anything else that the world's ever seen. And technology is an important part of that.

That quote is in stark contrast to what I've been hearing about the future of games in certain game development/design forums(fora?).

[Ninja Dodo]

Interesting stuff. Looking forward to playing Invisible War...

[Jackal]

Thanks for the link, mycroft. It's not hot news only because this guy never craves celebrity. Always an excellent read, though. As the saying goes, he's probably forgotten more about design than many developers will ever know.

I could save myself a lot of time and effort in describing my thoughts on gaming. I'd just need to point to a few Spector interviews and say "yeah, what HE said..."

[James]

good interview, will check the rest of it tm.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by mycroft

That quote is in stark contrast to what I've been hearing about the future of games in certain game development/design forums(fora?).

Sorry for digging up this ANCIENT thread, but this is something I've been thinking about myself lately.

That attitude I think is the thing more than anything else that sets Ion Storm apart from a lot of other developers. We're not thinking about how to make games more cinematic - I couldn't care less about that. We're not about making games more like movies, we're about making games unlike anything else that the world's ever seen. And technology is an important part of that.

That "We want to make our games more cinematic / make you finally cry / plus more polygons!" trend has been going on for quite a while now. Just boot up your Sony/Microsoft machine and play a round of "Splinter Cell", "Half Life 2", heck, scream the name of whatever high profile title that comes to your mind and was released in the last couple of years, and chances are, you've hit onto one of these.

In a way, it's a return back to the whole Multimedia hype of the early 90s. You know, when CD-drives came out and everybody was eager to melt paper-thin gamey stuff with even thinner wannabe-movie scripts (the exception proves the rule! ). Essentially to teach movies to be like games. Except, it's vice versa this time. Games are taught to be like movies. Something like that.

I think the discussions about how the gaming industry might be a tine little bit too inbred to really aim at such goals have been going on even here. Most people involved with games have a background in technology, they're programmers, coders, with mostly little to no experience or education in directing, script writing, or anything. And the slight number of people experienced with such media called in to assist are mostly not really experienced with games. Eventually resulting in something like "Clive Barker's Undying". A fairly standard first person game with guns (kinda like Half-Life... or AvP2) with some cool weapons and superficial Barker stuff on top of that.

I couldn't care less about that.

You can't help to adore that statement. Very, very much.

Because, somehow, there's something gone amiss. Hey, I'm looking forward to the next big intruiging blockbusters as much as the next guy - well, almost. Still, there's something gone amiss. Upon (re)playing some of the older Origin or Looking Glass titles (and a bunch of others), you might realize what it is yourself. Maybe you already did.

From "Ultima", to "Wasteland", "The Styigian Abyss", "Fallout" and back, these games couldn't care less about this particular trend in gaming. Instead of guiding you by hand from one shiny cutscene to the next on a more or less strictly linear route, like many games do these days, these first and foremost offered you worlds to toy around with. To explore, to uncover, to do.... plenty stuff inside. While offering a decent narrative on top of that. I like how Thief often handles this by triggering dialogues in-game. It's only you, sitting in the dark, holding your breath and trying to listen to whatever these guys are telling each others.

There's certain world simulator thing behind going on as well. Levels aren't ... levels. You don't need to follow a certain path or take characters with you just because "the script" demands you to do so. Or because said script limits you to that one path anyway. It's all in the small touches of the design: In "System Shock", you can visit whatever deck of a space ship you want to visit at any given time in the game. Up to a certain point, at least. And provided you have gained access already, of course. Or take "Underworld", for instance. There are even pretty crude (by now) physics routines working behind it all that have you sliding on ice, or things dropping to the ground in an appropriate way and stuff like that. Don't get past that troll? Well, throw a piece of meat towards him and see what'll happen next.

So yeah, the bottom line seems to be, no matter if you're talking about the 90s approach (movies pretending to be games), or the current one (games trying to be like movies), it can certainly come, and mostly does just that, at a price. But then, all things do. And no, in essence, this isn't strictly about that tired, old "linearity vs. non-linearity" thing, either.

I like my "Half Life"'s and "Grim Fandango"'s. Certainly. But with so many games trying to be the next cool cinematic thing I can't wait to see with what guys like this one come up with next. Eek, that was long. Not all that coherent. And damn late! Also: I wish I could've done this in German. :/

[samIamsad]

Some articles (some a few years old already, but really, things haven't changed in any kind of way):

Games close in on Citizen Kane.

To which somebody countered in his blog: Games are NOT movies.

And of course not to be missed: Designers and the movies they love.

The article at wirenews.com went on to say how

Game environments offer more opportunities for exploration. Doors that last year were "painted on" this year open into rooms through which players can wander. Environments can be manipulated; for instance, cutting a rope can bring a hanging object down on enemies' heads.

Except that this isn't true. If anything, the number of ways me, as a player interacts with a game has more often than not *decreased* compared to some games created in the stone age of gaming. Like, UltimaVII. For instance. Sigh. Yet another Origin/LG game? You've got to be nuts! But hey, coincidence? Certainly not. There's certainly a pretty diverse view on the topic of game design out there. What can be. What should be. Except that... yeah, that whole cinematic thing in its omnipresence is just a little sickening. At least to me.

I'm especially fond of what Ken Levine (Irrational Games) once had to say:

But what we conceive as designers is never going to be as good as what the partnership of gamer and game creates.

From my experience, as a gamer, consumer, whatever you like, that's true. That STILL doesn't mean I would have ever wanted to miss out on Grim Fandango, though.

Your take on this?

[EvoG]

Well Sam, it appears you and I think very much alike on this. The primary reason why I'm obssessed with open-world games (GTA, Saints Row, Just Cause) is the world sim aspect and exploration. The only problem is they fall far short of the sense of discovery you got from Ultima 4 - 6 (and even 9 if you can get past the bugs). Where todays sandbox games give you geography, you are almost never rewarded for exploration, and a hidden 'package' isn't enough. I want to find hidden storylines, unique items or one of a kind vehicles to drive. A minigame or subplot event. Something that was hidden and subtantial, but not necessary to find. Do you perchance recall the "X-Files" quest in Arcanum? You stumble upon these hybrid experiments with ogres, learning that they were genetically created. You had to follow the trail yourself with no guidance, and that was terribly satisfying, albeit with an 'end' that kind of left you hanging but wanting more.

We need more in-game narrative like HL2 with no cut-scenes, more object dense worlds like the old Ultimas and/or Oblivion, and rewarding open-world exploration and discovery like the old school RPG's. Developers are afraid to make a game where the player has to invest himself with real thought, planning, note taking (in game journals work well) or map making. This is why we have giant shining markers showing the player where to go next. Those HAVE to go away as well. I want to only know generally where I may need to go, and what I may need to do and the go find it myself...or stumble upon it out of nowhere, which is far more incredible to experience.

Honestly this has been something I've been working on with my designs like forever, I just need to decide on which world to begin applying them to.


Cheers

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by EvoG

...Do you perchance recall the "X-Files" quest in Arcanum? You stumble upon these hybrid experiments with ogres, learning that they were genetically created. You had to follow the trail yourself with no guidance, and that was terribly satisfying, albeit with an 'end' that kind of left you hanging but wanting more.

Are you serious?

I was horrified after finding the charnel birthing warehouse. So much so that I went on a not so discriminate gnome killing spree. Genetically created? Kidnapped women where raped by captive ogres and inevitably died in childbirth 100% of the time. Just to make docile bodyguards. It was doubly troubling for me, roleplaying a half-ogre at the time.

Fallout, Divine Divinity, and Sacred also have large and small sidequests in a similar vein. Truly the best quest reward is an interesting story/filler really that fleshes out the gameworld rather than a new item or power. The sign of a writer confidant in their medium and its audience enough not to feel the need to railroad/lead by the hand. It also adds to the replay appeal (perhaps with a fan made walkthrough).

[EvoG]

Well appreciate that it was some time ago that I played it, and now that you describe it in more detail, yes now I remember...wasn't important to my point, but I remember.

[samIamsad]

Thehe.


Hey, ever had one of these days? You get up in the morning, rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, and, as usual, checking your mission objectives. Which tell you to go to the bath room, which is located on the first floor, second door to the right. So you do that. And your daily routine takes off. Except that, upon your afternoon walk in the park, you decide to smell the roses a bit off your usual path. No luck. You hit an invisible wall and are forced to go back. Damn. It could have been worse, and so it does. A little bit. Upon returning to your home, you can't find the car keys. Luckily, your advanced HUD is pointing you to its exact location. Since it slipped between two sofa cushions yesterday evening while you were playing "Pandora Tomorrow" on your big screen, there's no way in hell you would have found it for yourself otherwise.

Next objective: Pandora Tomorrow. Sleep. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. While you are taking your clothes off, ready to go to bed, you realize that you haven't eaten anything in days. Nor did you drink. Or showered. Or changed your clothes. Or pee. Or anything. "What the heck", you think, life as a video game character sure is great.

Originally Posted by EvoG

The primary reason why I'm obssessed with open-world games (GTA, Saints Row, Just Cause) is the world sim aspect and exploration.

Indeed something almost missing completely. I don't know, but I've always thought that the relative open-endedness of the games we brought up here also was a result of the relative realism its creators wanted to portray. No rails, no limits, no f***ing health-packs lying around at random places, for cripe's sake! How does that old company slogan go? indeed.

Now, as with any kind of simulation, there's always the question: How much is too much? We're still talking games. And fun, and all that. Yet, for me, it is often the relative realism, which goes hand in hand with a rich way of interacting with your environment, that really pulls me in. I can pick up and throw around (almost) anything, wooden objects don't sink when thrown into water, metal objects do. My character maybe needs to eat and drink from time to time, "The Stygian Abyss" even keeps track how tenable your food is. Yeah, micro-management like that can be a bit anal, if taken to the extreme admittedly . But still. Some people brought up terms like "the future of gaming" and "virtual reality" when talking about these games for a reason, you know.

We need more in-game narrative like HL2 with no cut-scenes, more object dense worlds like the old Ultimas and/or Oblivion, and rewarding open-world exploration and discovery like the old school RPG's. Developers are afraid to make a game where the player has to invest himself with real thought, planning, note taking (in game journals work well) or map making.

Agreed. Maybe it's also a case of somebody underestimating its audience (like Hollywood did, still does, I don't know). Cost comes into it, too, since something like that would also mean more content do develop, depending on the project. Narrative-driven stuff is ace, I'd also be happy if somebody would try to further look into developing a gaming language of its own, instead of ripping off what movies/books have been doing all the time. Half-Life's approach was a start, but it's been a few years now. Now that I'm thinking about it, the in-game stuff in Thief is pretty much the same thing, except that it pulls you in even more. I don't know, but trying to sneak upon somebody so that I can eveasdrop on what the heck he's on about and taking care that nobody will surprise me fom behind at the same time always seemed a bit more involving than stepping up to a Black Mesa employee gretting me with: "Hello, Dr. Freeman!"

Still, it needs to be said: With due respect to you as an animator, it's sad that everybody has got their Three-Sixties, Playstations, Vista systems running dual core CPUs and that, and all (or at least most) of that power is wasted onto:

Additional polygons.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by samsie

Agreed. Maybe it's also a case of somebody underestimating its audience (like Hollywood did, still does, I don't know). Cost comes into it, too, since something like that would also mean more content do develop, depending on the project. Narrative-driven stuff is ace, I'd also be happy if somebody would try to further look into developing a gaming language of its own, instead of ripping off what movies/books have been doing all the time. Half-Life's approach was a start, but it's been a few years now. Now that I'm thinking about it, the in-game stuff in Thief is pretty much the same thing, except that it pulls you in even more. I don't know, but trying to sneak upon somebody so that I can eveasdrop on what the heck he's on about and taking care that nobody will surprise me fom behind at the same time always seemed a bit more involving than stepping up to a Black Mesa employee gretting me with: "Hello, Dr. Freeman!"

It may take years - perhaps even decades - before games develop their own solid idiosyncratic vernacular for handling narrative like film has. Game designers and writers have also grown up in, been raised in, and steeped in, consumer driven pop culture, where references to references to references are the norm, a kind of incestuous cannibalism. That makes for the overwhelming amount of cliches you see in games ("I got a baaaaad feeling about this", etc.) - and the complaints from gamers like us that we've seen all that crap before and why don't they freaking push themselves to try out new things.

Even film at its birth was similar. The first 'blockbuster' movie, Edwin S. Porter's The Great Train Robbery (1903), borrows heavily from the stage play setting, even as it innovates with actual on-location shooting and action sequences. The stage play was the main visual narrative and aesthetic reference for directors such as Porter and D.W. Griffith, and they borrowed from it heavily until they began experimenting with their own ways. Hitchcock and Orson Welles were brilliant in how they handled filmic narrative.

So it may just be that we'll get more movie-wannabe games, and possibly the next generation of game designers and writers will finally begin to break out of this cycle through experimentation, in tandem, of course, with the progress of technology.

[EvoG]

Okay wait for me guys! I want desperately to post but I have emergency work to do (animation Sam )...so if you'll hold these thoughts, I'll post a bit later today, around after 7 or 8 CST.

BRB!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

< sits on the edge of his seat until voGsie makes his post >



< ...changes his mind and goes off and eats a cookie >

[Eureka]

Long live Deus Ex.

[samIamsad]

Well, that too. I'm really glad that I've never actually played any of the Deus:Ex games so far. Sssh, don't tell anyone! That means that there's even more more candy waiting to be grabbed by me now that my rig's pretty much beyond hope running all these new cinematic one-way-ticket rollercoaster-rides.

Originally Posted by Trep

...

How... soothing. And so reasonable. No hot rant?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

I'm really glad that I've never actually played any of the Deus:Ex games so far. Sssh, don't tell anyone!

samsie

How... soothing. No hot rant?

Huh?

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Huh?

Don't you look so confused. I haven't played Arcanum yet either (sssssshhhhh!). Although it's somewhere on my list of things to grab.

Seems like EvoG had yet another date with some more polygons. Watch out, they can be quite spikey, dude! Btw, regarding Oblivion. I thought it was pretty much confirmed that Beth are blatant bastards, liars and morons tricking people into buying their home-brewn crap by now. Don't you love these boards...

[EvoG]

Ugh...

You know, difficult work is one thing...painful relationships with the people you're doing the difficult work FOR is just awful on the spirit...

...anyway...

I want to post some substantive thoughts on what both you guys said...fun development side stuff too, and I dont want to just spit out a quick reply so it'll have to wait a bit now.

TTYS

[samIamsad]

Not a problem. Truth be told, I've been kinda busy myself lately, as can be seen below...* Back to the topic at hand, there's also a fairly recent interview with Mr. Spector I hadn't seen before. Pretty good read, too.


* Yikes, it's been two yearss and I had forgotten that the Ragdoll physics in here are a leetle bit over the top. Try to pile up some bodies like I did and chances are you'll be greeted with the sight of a mass of flesh and limbs that just won't stop moving. Creepy.

[Junkface]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

And of course not to be missed: Designers and the movies they love.

I find it interesting that of that group Warren Spector, the designer who seems to have the greatest love for and most sophisticated knowledge of cinema (I fell in love with him all over again when he brought up Michael Curtiz), is the one most fervently opposed to the whole cinematic revolution things. Besides that I don't have much to say except that you're about pretty much everything you've said in this thread.

On a semi-related note what's always bothered me the Half-Life style approach, although it is a start, as you say, is that a lot of the time it simply results in cutscenes without the fancy camera angles and as such isn't a hell of a lot more involving. The amount of praise it receives is highly disproportianate.