[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Wow that's a first. Can you please give examples of non linear adventure games. I don't consider Day of the tentcale to be non linear coz it's true you can do things in different orders, but you always end up doing the same things regardless of how you play it.

Well, that a game is non-linear is doesn't mean that the player can to skip parts of the story/puzzles, it just means that they doesn't neccessarily have to happen in a particular (linear) sequence. So I would consider the start of Monkey Island, for instance, to be non-linear.

I think most adventure games are "less linear" than Half-Life 2. If Half-Life 2 was a traditional adventure game, it would probably be a bit like the second chapter of Gateway II: Homeworld. A series of rooms (or clusters of rooms) each containing one or more puzzles that had to be solved in order for the player to move on to the next room(s). Quite limited, but that part of Gateway II worked very well and is one of the reasons why I think that game is one of the best adventure games ever released. Just like Half-Life 2 works very well most of the time, at least for gamers used to shooters.

[squarejawhero]

See mine and Petter Holmbergs review at JA+ for more reasons why HL2 works, for us anyway, and how it relates to adventure gaming.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by ragnar

But nevertheless it is more non-linear to be able to do the things you must do in different order than not being able to do anything in different order as in HL2.

The most non-linear AG I've played is The Last Express I think.

I never played The Last Express so it's definitely on my to play list. How can I not when Mechner is behind it, the mastermind who wrote the original Prince of persia in his free time when he was studying psychology in college

Well to me non-linearity is actually having choices to make, and based on the choices you make the game play differently. Take KOTOR for example. You can threaten people to sell you something, you can kill them and take it, or you can be noble and just pay the high price they ask for. That's non linear. But if I had 4 planets to discover in any order I wanted, but the 4 planets had completely one path to go through and one way to play them, then that's linear gameplay divided into 4 chapters

Like someone said here, Valve introduced a lot of elements for you that look very obvious, but some people opt to play it differently. For example, you go into a room full of zombies and you see a saw blade. *EUREKA* you grab it with the gravity gun and cut all of them into half. That is what Valve wants you to do. But then, I'm a DOOM type of player who likes to shoot the living crap of everything. I can instead take my machine gun and empty it into their zombie bods. Within the linear world you can argue that you can go about doing something in more than one way.

But I'm an HL2 whore

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Kolorabi

Well, that a game is non-linear is doesn't mean that the player can to skip parts of the story/puzzles, it just means that they doesn't neccessarily have to happen in a particular (linear) sequence. So I would consider the start of Monkey Island, for instance, to be non-linear.

But you always have to use item A on item B to produce item C or solve puzzle D. Isn't that linear gameplay? Non-linear gameplay involves AI and choices. Like I can use item A or E or F or G on item B, or I can just forget about item B and find a totally different way of solving the puzzle.

I dunno that's non-linear gameplay to me. It adds replayability, you can go back and play the game and experience it differently. If I pick up any MI game, I don't have any motive to play it again, except for nostalgia or me forgetting the puzzles.

EDIT: Indy Jones and the fate of atlantis is non linear, coz you get to play it 3 times after one point, with three totally different puzzles and different paths

[Kolorabi]

Hmm, I think there are many degrees of non-linearity. A totally linear game would require you to do _everything_ in a specific order. A totally linear adventure would require you to solve all puzzles, pick up all items and visit every room in a pre-determined order. Very few games are totally linear (strictly speaking).

In the first part of The Secret of Monkey Island, you have to complete three trials. When you've done this, you will trigger an event that makes the game move on to the next part. You can do these trials in any order you'd like, and you can work on quite a few things at the same time. So it's not entirely linear. But you still have to do the same things in order to solve the game.

Monkey Island 2 does the same thing, and is even more open than it's predecessor - at one point a very large part of the game world opens up, and you can visit and explore three islands at once while searching for the map parts. There are still things that must be done in order, but at this point the game feels very non-linear.

I'd say Fate of Atlantis is more linear, as no matter which path you choose, story-events still happens in the same order. Don't they? It's been a while since I played the game now, so I might not remember, but I can't recall ever having much freedom (beyond choosing path) in that game.

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Well to me non-linearity is actually having choices to make, and based on the choices you make the game play differently. Take KOTOR for example. You can threaten people to sell you something, you can kill them and take it, or you can be noble and just pay the high price they ask for.

Yes, that is a degree of non-linearity. That's non linear, albeit rather unimportant if it has no further bearing on the future of the game play (I haven't played KOTOR, but judging from other Bioware titles it very well might have).

But if I had 4 planets to discover in any order I wanted, but the 4 planets had completely one path to go through and one way to play them, then that's linear gameplay divided into 4 chapters

I agree here too.

Like someone said here, Valve introduced a lot of elements for you that look very obvious, but some people opt to play it differently. For example, you go into a room full of zombies and you see a saw blade. *EUREKA* you grab it with the gravity gun and cut all of them into half. That is what Valve wants you to do. But then, I'm a DOOM type of player who likes to shoot the living crap of everything. I can instead take my machine gun and empty it into their zombie bods. Within the linear world you can argue that you can go about doing something in more than one way.

But I'm an HL2 whore

That isn't even an unimportant choice. I could care less with what weapon I have to kill the zillionth zombie (besides, I haven't played any game since Ghosts 'n' Goblins where zombies have been a good addition to the game). Choosing in which order to solve puzzles is in my mind somewhat more non-linear (not by much, but enough) than choosing the weapon to kill a monster.

[Kolzig]

Originally Posted by ConcreteRancor

Wait, FarCry had a weaker story than Doom 3? I'm playing through Doom 3 right now, and I REALLY have to disagree.

Well the thing is, when I played FarCry, it was good at the time, but after I had completed the game, I was disappointed in the story as whole.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Or go play Knights Of The Old Republic.

You know, many who've played Fallout complain that KOTOR is too restrictive and overly-linear.

[Catbert]

And it was. What it did have was beautiful character development.

[Royal Fool]

Originally Posted by BigRobot

You know, many who've played Fallout complain that KOTOR is too restrictive and overly-linear.

I had the same feelings when I was playing KotOR, and ultimately I got so bored with it that I just abandoned the game, not even reaching that infamous Star Forge thingamajig (Which, ironically, is the place many people say the game picks up the pace again).

[squarejawhero]

My girlfriend and I got so bored of it, eventually she decided to do a two-day marathon to finish. It's got more possible endings that Spielbergs AI and a tough end boss if you don't get the right powers, which, naturally, we didn't. Much as I liked a lot of Kotor, it did start getting old when you realised that it just WASN'T going to finish even after hours of play.

[MDMaster]

And here was I thinking that KOTOR was actually too short

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by ragnar

Precisely, I didn't feel like I had any choice to do anything _I_ wanted to do, ever. I felt like a marionette more than anything else.

That's funny, because in the game, Gordon Freeman actually *is* a marionette. Gman *did* plan it all out for you, and he knew exactly where you were going and what you were doing. (You saw the man crossing your path multiple times, if you've been attentive.)

I'd say they've been very successful in capturing the right feeling.

--Erwin

[ragnar]

Well, if that is the goal with the game, it might be a perfect game, but at least I am rather bored by playing (or rather being played at) a marionette. It's much, much, much more fun playing the puppeteer.

[squarejawhero]

How far in are you, anyway?

[ragnar]

The first sentence in the first post contains the information you seek:

Originally Posted by ragnar

I've so far gotten to the ant-lions or whatever the things are called

[squarejawhero]

Not far then.

[Catbert]

The Ant lions is about 45% into the game, I think.

[squarejawhero]

Depends... I'm not sure it's quite 45%. If its before you get to gleefully control the little buggers, then it's earlier at the buggy.

[Jackal]

Complaining about either linearity OR non-linearity is ridiculous. A developer can't do BOTH any justice, so they have to favour one or the other. The one benefits, the other suffers, and of course those that prefer the other will always squawk.

Hey, not liking something is perfectly legit, but we'd all be better off saying said "My problem is that I prefer X, and the game doesn't cater to my preferences."

For a game, the only question is whether it does what it's trying to do well. I thought HL2 did, as did Far Cry, and KOTOR, and Fallout.

Disclaimer: Comments in general, not directed specifically at Ragnar.