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Old 12-02-2004, 12:35 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ConcreteRancor
I have to say I'm pretty surprised that they recommend Prince of Persia.
Well, as they didn't playtest the games in their most violent games list (see the link I posted earlier), it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't bother to test the games they reccommended either.
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Even if they refer to the original game, and not the new one, I'm still surprised. I actually am of the opinion that the original Prince of Persia was more violent than Sands of Time, in the sense that there was far more blood. (Remember the guillotine blades that sliced you in half?)
Yes, I do. And the sound the blades made as they cut through the prince's flesh... unforgettable. At least in the Amiga version.

All the PoP-games have been violent, and none of them have anything to do in a list of reccommended games for people seeking non-violent games. But as the people who made these lists haven't got a clue and didn't bother to test the games properly (if at all), both lists are completely worthless anyway.
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Kolorabi
This is an interesting read: http://www.buzzcut.com/article.php?s...41123222310861

I followed up with a simple question, “Who on this panel has played which of the games?”

Burke answered first, “I haven’t played any of them.” She backed up her willful ignorance of the games by suggesting that she didn’t need to read Soldier of Fortune to know that she was opposed to its glorification of killing. “I think it’s an irrelevant question,” she concluded.

Another panelist, Pat Wolf, executive director of the ICCR, took the opportunity to suggest that the ESRB raters didn’t play the games either. They simply watched submitted footage.

Finally, Pamela Eakes, president and founder, Mothers Against Violence in America, offered that she had reviewed play of GTA: San Andreas and Halo 2 for about 6 hours. Her answer was not clear in terms of how she reviewed the games or with whom.
So you have to play a game to have an opinion about it? It just seems to me that on the Kill JFK thread we had a lot of people condemning a game they hadn't played. (Though some did download the demo to check their gut reaction to the idea was correct, which I greatly admire) I'm sure someone will argue that it's not the same thing at all but it's all really just a matter of scale. These people just have a broader idea of what they find unacceptable in a game. This would also explain the inclusion of Hitman:Blood Money. I don't think any of us need to see it to know it's not going to be about cuddling fluffy bunnies.

As for the Kombat/Combat thing are we seriously criticising someone for accidentally typing a real word instead of one a games company made up? Give me a break. Like none of us have ever made a typo.

But the errors on the "Non-Violent" list are less forgivable. If you're going to promote something you should ALWAYS check that your claims are valid.

The real question is just how large a group of people we're talking about here. Is it just 5 people who've come up with Society names or half the world? I suspect it's just a vociferous minority but if it's a larger movement maybe we need to think about doing more to defend our hobby against them.
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Old 12-02-2004, 03:48 PM   #23
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I can't believe they put Shadow Hearts on the list. It is an RPG! As we all know, us RPG nerds stuck in our parents basements are planning to pull school shootings because we played a game with a big breasted girly on the cover that emphasizes story above all else...

Stories are bad, mmmkay?
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by stepurhan
So you have to play a game to have an opinion about it? It just seems to me that on the Kill JFK thread we had a lot of people condemning a game they hadn't played. (Though some did download the demo to check their gut reaction to the idea was correct, which I greatly admire) I'm sure someone will argue that it's not the same thing at all but it's all really just a matter of scale.
Well, yes and no. It's possible to have a valid opinion about a game without having played it, as long as your opinion is based on facts about the game that are available.

But what these people are doing is to make a list of ten games that are more violent than the rest of the games out there, and saying that one game is more violent than another game. The only way to make such a list is to do a lot of research, not only on the games on the list, but also on the games off it - as that's the only way to determine which games are more violent than the rest.

If they haven't played the game, how can they claim that Halo 2 is worse than Far Cry or Painkiller. How can they say Gunslinger Girls is worse than Bloodrayne 2? Or that Shadow Heart is worse than Vampire? It's okay to think that a game is violent, but as soon as you start saying it's more violent than another, you'd better have some proof.
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These people just have a broader idea of what they find unacceptable in a game. This would also explain the inclusion of Hitman:Blood Money. I don't think any of us need to see it to know it's not going to be about cuddling fluffy bunnies.
No, but how do they know it's going to be more violent than Bloodrayne 2? If you've played Bloodrayne 2 or the demo, you know it's a pretty violent game, so why isn't that on the list while some game that doesn't actually exist yet is?
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As for the Kombat/Combat thing are we seriously criticising someone for accidentally typing a real word instead of one a games company made up? Give me a break. Like none of us have ever made a typo.
This, like many other things with the list, indicates that it's not well-researched, and therefore useless.
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But the errors on the "Non-Violent" list are less forgivable. If you're going to promote something you should ALWAYS check that your claims are valid.
I think that it's just as important to make sure that your accusations are correct. It wouldn't be very nice of me to pick ten forum members, pretty much at random, and claiming they are "The ten most dishonest adventuregamers" or something like that. This group is making accussations, and they do not have the evidence to back them up. Assuming something (for example that Hitman: Blood Money will be more violent than Bloodrayne 2) isn't enough.
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The real question is just how large a group of people we're talking about here. Is it just 5 people who've come up with Society names or half the world? I suspect it's just a vociferous minority but if it's a larger movement maybe we need to think about doing more to defend our hobby against them.
I think the general opinion that these people seem to have of video games is pretty widespread, sadly.
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Old 12-03-2004, 05:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Kolorabi
If they haven't played the game, how can they claim that Halo 2 is worse than Far Cry or Painkiller. How can they say Gunslinger Girls is worse than Bloodrayne 2? Or that Shadow Heart is worse than Vampire? It's okay to think that a game is violent, but as soon as you start saying it's more violent than another, you'd better have some proof.
Fair comment. There is a distinction between saying these are violent games and saying they are the most violent. Realistically I think that compiling a genuine list of the most violent games would be next to impossible because of the sheer volume of games coming out. No-one has time to play all of them long enough to get a valid comparison. The problem is with the "Worst" part of the title but you can't deny all of the games listed are pretty violent.
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This, like many other things with the list, indicates that it's not well-researched, and therefore useless.
I still see this as a simple transcription error. If they'd called the title by a completely inaccurate name, say "Mortal Combat : Conception" then that might be different. But there are many tests that show the brain will sometimes interpret what it expects to see rather than what's there. Non-gamers just expect the word to be Combat not Kombat After all, the minimal research to flag the game as "potentially violent" would generate the correct title so it's hardly a question of lacking major research.

Quote:
I think that it's just as important to make sure that your accusations are correct. It wouldn't be very nice of me to pick ten forum members, pretty much at random, and claiming they are "The ten most dishonest adventuregamers" or something like that. This group is making accussations, and they do not have the evidence to back them up. Assuming something (for example that Hitman: Blood Money will be more violent than Bloodrayne 2) isn't enough.
Again, this is the problem of the "Worst" part of the title. If you were to put together a list of forum members at random then you'd have no knowledge to base your dishonesty accusation on. The games listed may not be the "worst" but I don't think we can deny that they are violent. They are therefore accurately accusing the games of being violent but are on dodgy ground saying they are more violent than anything else available.
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Old 12-03-2004, 09:56 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepurhan
Fair comment. There is a distinction between saying these are violent games and saying they are the most violent. Realistically I think that compiling a genuine list of the most violent games would be next to impossible because of the sheer volume of games coming out. No-one has time to play all of them long enough to get a valid comparison. The problem is with the "Worst" part of the title but you can't deny all of the games listed are pretty violent.
But it's the "worst" part that's important here. We all know these are violent games. We don't need a group to tell us what we can read from the boxes - thanks to the rating system, these games are clearly marked as being violent (unless we're talking about Gunslinger Girls, in which case we'd probably have to know japanese to understand what the box says). Nobody needs a list of ten random violent games (out of x amount of violent games released this year).

So it's pretty impossible to get away from the fact that these are supposed to be the games that the group(s) behind this list think are the worst violent games around right now. And then, it all falls apart as while some of these games clearly are some of the most violent games released lately, there are other well-known games that are far more violent than certain other games on the list (Painkiller is quite a bit worse than Halo 2, for instance). And one game isn't available in the west. And one isn't available anywhere, because it hasn't even been released.
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I still see this as a simple transcription error. If they'd called the title by a completely inaccurate name, say "Mortal Combat : Conception" then that might be different. But there are many tests that show the brain will sometimes interpret what it expects to see rather than what's there. Non-gamers just expect the word to be Combat not Kombat After all, the minimal research to flag the game as "potentially violent" would generate the correct title so it's hardly a question of lacking major research.
If it had been the only problem in the lists, then I would have agreed with you. But it isn't, it's just one of many things that doesn't make sense - and the reason there are so many flaws with the list is that the people who made it haven't played the games and don't know what they're talking about.
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Again, this is the problem of the "Worst" part of the title. If you were to put together a list of forum members at random then you'd have no knowledge to base your dishonesty accusation on. The games listed may not be the "worst" but I don't think we can deny that they are violent. They are therefore accurately accusing the games of being violent but are on dodgy ground saying they are more violent than anything else available.
Yep. But how difficult was it for them to tell that these games are violent? Did their research consist of looking at the boxes? (Weirdo 1: "Hmm, this is rated mature for violence, and there's a picture of a gun on the box, so it had better go in our list" Weirdo 2: "Yeah, and let's add that GTA game everyone are talking about, it _must_ be pretty violent!" Weirdo 1: "I can't believe this job would turn out to be so easy, look at this Postal thing, they even brag about the violence on the box!" Weirdo 2: "That's it, ten titles! Woohoo, all done!").
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Old 12-03-2004, 07:12 PM   #27
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I think they may be picking the games they are because they're looking at the violent games that they also see as being extremely POPULAR. That would justify Halo 2's inclusion, as well as Doom 3 and Half-Life 2, while having some reason for leaving out Painkiller and Far Cry.

Although the inclusion of Gunslinger Girls blows that theory out of the water and possibly into orbit, so really I have no idea what's going through these wacked-out minds.
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Old 12-04-2004, 09:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolorabi
But it's the "worst" part that's important here. We all know these are violent games. We don't need a group to tell us what we can read from the boxes - thanks to the rating system, these games are clearly marked as being violent (unless we're talking about Gunslinger Girls, in which case we'd probably have to know japanese to understand what the box says). Nobody needs a list of ten random violent games (out of x amount of violent games released this year).
I must be honest but I think the "Worst" is the least important thing about this list. They wanted to grab media coverage and the "Worst Violent Games" makes greater sound-bite material than "Ten games that we picked at random all of which are pretty darn violent" Saying there are more violent games is just adding fuel to their fire. Can you imagine the field day they could have with some of the stuff in this thread?

News Headline : Gamer Forum reveals more depravity than even we suspected!!

Remember, part of the reason groups like these gain power is by making sensationalist claims like these with enough verifiable truth (the games in the list ARE voilent) to convert more people to their cause.

I think what we need to concentrate on is the other side of their story. The 10 "Non-Violent" games. We've already had many comments showing how flawed the list is as it stands. What say we compile our own list of commercially available non-violent games? We can then challenge their idea of non-violence and show how easy a proper list of this sort is to compile. In fact, I think I'll go start a thread for this now.
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