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Old 08-10-2004, 04:49 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edlglide
I still think I'd put Sid Meier above him --the Civilization series and Pirates! both fall in my top 10 PC games of all-time.
In terms of games they've put out commercially, I agree. I'm a huge Civ nut myself. However, after reading interviews with both designers, and hearing Will Wright speak at a conference, I've really started to admire the way Wright thinks. It seems like he's capable of so much more themes and genres than just The Sims / SimCity. The man should be running his own company, as clearly all publishers will be tripping over themselves to fund his projects now.
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Old 08-10-2004, 05:52 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
You know the interesting thing about this is actually that it's not even up to the designers. Ask any designer in the games industry if they'd like to see more innovation and less sequels and they'll say 'of course'. Ask the same people if their publisher would fund them and you'll get a depressed 'not likely'.

Just an example, we had two guys from Team17 over at uni to talk about their work and one thing they said was that they have plenty of original ideas, but their publisher won't let them make anything but Worms sequels.

The problem is not so much with designers running out of ideas, as it is with publishers blocking new ones.
You're right -- I shouldn't have thrown designers in that sentence; should have just left companies. Plenty of designers have all sorts of ideas that the companies they work for won't let the publish. It's the same thing in the movie industry, though -- people thought New Line was crazy for letting Peter Jackson spend all that money on LOTR. If he'd failed, New Line Cinema would have been finished as a company. This is the sort of thing most movie studios won't do anymore...........won't take a big risk on a film like that, whereas back in the earlier days of cinema they would. It's the same thing with PC games -- in the early days, the 1980s, people came out with all sorts of new stuff. But recently almost all we get are just rehashes and copies. It'd be great if we could get more game companies headed up by the creative designers like Peter Molyneaux with Lionhead and Sid Meier with Firaxis (although I don't think Sid Meier actually heads Firaxis, they seem willing to pretty much let him do what he wants). And it'd be phenomenal for Will Wright to have his own company.
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Old 08-10-2004, 06:51 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Fop
The article says that almost all of true gamers' games are full of violence. But since when are those true gamers? It's like saying the only true athletes are those who enjoy parashooting from 70m tall buildings.
Well, I tend to not classify people as "gamers" if the only games they play are things like Tetris or the offerings over at PopCap. Same with most "kids' games." Although Number Munchers was fun, I probably wouldn't consider a kid who was a Number Munchers fanatic to be a "gamer" per se. Although that's mostly an unconscious classification, I think.
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Old 08-10-2004, 07:49 AM   #44
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Did the article use that word? "True" gamers? I missed it if it did, but I doubt it. The reference is to hardcore gamers, but that implies no superiority. It's just a way of distinguishing the many thousands of casual players from those whose primary entertainment is gaming and all-things game related.

More like saying that most Xtreme athletes would enjoy parachuting from buildings.
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:10 AM   #45
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Why are all sports so dangerous? Sure, many people hike and go to the gym, but almost all of extreme sports are extremely dangerous. I want more safe sports, there are no safe choices for me and I'm turning into a slob.
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:20 AM   #46
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It would be nice to see more games that have more to do than just killing stuff. It seems like these days games are a lot better in terms of graphics and interface, but they're all the same in terms of gameplay. Back in the arcade days there were a lot more differences between individual games because the gameplay was pretty much the only thing they had going for them. So they had no choice but to be creative. As a result, you have all these old games that aren't really similar to each other, but there's no way to really categorize them other than as simply "arcade games." I'd like to see some more of that creativity in today's games.

I would disagree with you on one point, though, remixor. In the article you seem to just reject out of hand the notion that violent video games could possibly make people more aggressive. I'm not saying it does or it doesn't. I'm just saying there's really not enough evidence to prove the effects of video game violence one way or the other, so we shouldn't simply assume that there is no effect just because we happen to like games. I've written all about my views on this in some articles I wrote earlier this year (The Dark Side of Gaming, Parts I and II).

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Old 08-10-2004, 08:56 AM   #47
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No, I didn't use the word "true" anywhere. I did use "hardcore", and I tried best I could to qualify what games fall into that category. Essentially I ended up with the genres of games that are essentially character- or story-driven, even if the characters and story aren't particularly brilliant.

Mag: I understand where you're coming from. For my part, though, I'm holding a view of "innocent until proven guilty" until further research presents itself.
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Old 08-10-2004, 01:59 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remixor
Mag: I understand where you're coming from. For my part, though, I'm holding a view of "innocent until proven guilty" until further research presents itself.
I can understand that, and I think that's probably a good attitude. But saying that violent video games make people more aggressive really isn't an unreasonable hypothesis. I think some gamers actually hurt their case by refusing to consider what the other side has to say or by trying to use anecdotal evidence like "I'm not a killer, so video games can't make people more violent."

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Old 08-10-2004, 02:46 PM   #49
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Remixor:
Royal Fool posted some quotes from an interview with Tim Schafer, some are quite relevant to your article.

here's the link
http://forums.adventuregamers.com/sh...9&page=4&pp=20


Hope Royal Fool doesn't mind me linking to the post
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Old 08-10-2004, 10:05 PM   #50
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I read the interview when it came out, thanks for the heads up though
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:30 AM   #51
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Games are still rather young. We still use easy solutions in them. However, they are constantly getting more complex. Think about the original Doom. Hordes of enemies get killed, find key, open door, kill more. It was enough back then. However, the new Doom 3 has a plot, characters and even some innovation (I haven't seen manipulation of ingame computers like that before). Think about all the new FPSs that are coming. Half-life 2. Very character and story driven. Vampire: Bloodlines even more so. When did you last see a pure kill 'em all FPS? A game without some sort of story just doesn't cut it nowadays.

Someone said games should be more like in the 80s. Think about violence in 80s hits. Space Invaders. Endless killing and rampage without pause. Only the graphics didn't show it too well The reason 80s games are considered less violent is because they didn't have the technology to show violence.
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Old 08-11-2004, 06:16 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fop
When did you last see a pure kill 'em all FPS?
Well, Painkiller, for one. Serious Sam 2 is coming out soon too. But those games can be quite entertaining if you're in the right mood for them.

But you're still right. These games aren't the norm anymore.
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Old 08-11-2004, 06:27 AM   #53
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Serious Sam 2 is coming out soon too.
I think this post got caught in a time warp. Still, I hadn't heard anything about a new Sammy. Is that confirmed?
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Old 08-11-2004, 06:36 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
I think this post got caught in a time warp. Still, I hadn't heard anything about a new Sammy. Is that confirmed?
Check Croteam's website for answers to both parts of that post. You'll notice that Serious Sam: SE is not actually Serious Sam 2, since they're releasing the next Serious Sam game, with a new engine, under the latter name.
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Old 08-11-2004, 06:55 AM   #55
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Ah, I see. My bad. Man, another case for the horrible names thread. When #2 is really #3.

As much as I liked the mindless action of Serious Sam, I'm kinda hoping Croteam will go the extra mile with SS3 SS2 and give it a little more -gasp - depth.
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Old 08-11-2004, 08:57 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fop
Someone said games should be more like in the 80s. Think about violence in 80s hits. Space Invaders. Endless killing and rampage without pause. Only the graphics didn't show it too well The reason 80s games are considered less violent is because they didn't have the technology to show violence.
I don't mean to say that games of that era were less violent. But I do think they showed more creativity in terms of gameplay. Think about how many different kinds of games came out of that period. Frogger. Pac-Man. Burger Time. Donkey Kong. Q*bert. Joust. Marble Madness. Those games showed a lot of originality. These days it seems like almost every game that comes out is exactly the same as every other game in the same genre.

I think a big part of the reason we have so many violent games is because it's easy. Shooting things provides a very simple action that everybody can understand. Making fun non-violent games requires a lot more thought. Back in the 80s it was a lot easier to be that creative because the gameplay was pretty much the only thing the game had going for it. Now a lot of publishers would rather play it safe and use the same gameplay as everybody else just with newer graphics.

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Old 08-11-2004, 09:07 AM   #57
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Don't know if this has been said...but I think as technology has moved along, it has given developers the chance to be more realistic and therefore violent. I think that if the creaters of space invaders or joust could have, they would have made things as realistic as possible. Those games have violence at thier core...but thier crude graphics lead us to believe otherwise.
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Old 08-11-2004, 09:22 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag
I don't mean to say that games of that era were less violent. But I do think they showed more creativity in terms of gameplay. Think about how many different kinds of games came out of that period. Frogger. Pac-Man. Burger Time. Donkey Kong. Q*bert. Joust. Marble Madness. Those games showed a lot of originality. These days it seems like almost every game that comes out is exactly the same as every other game in the same genre.

I think a big part of the reason we have so many violent games is because it's easy. Shooting things provides a very simple action that everybody can understand. Making fun non-violent games requires a lot more thought. Back in the 80s it was a lot easier to be that creative because the gameplay was pretty much the only thing the game had going for it. Now a lot of publishers would rather play it safe and use the same gameplay as everybody else just with newer graphics.

mag
Yeah, but think about the games back then. First of all, games were so young, that by simply creating a game that is not a carbon copy of another, you'd probably create a new genre. In the end, a horde of Space Invaders clones were made (Space Wars was one), but they were lost in the mists of time. Secondly, it's a lot easier to think of something that is simple and short than something that has to have all the requirements games have these days. Create a new arcade game idea. It's not that hard, just think of something. Do you think someone would publish it? No f***ing way.
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Old 08-11-2004, 09:30 AM   #59
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Quote:
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Yeah, but think about the games back then. First of all, games were so young, that by simply creating a game that is not a carbon copy of another, you'd probably create a new genre. In the end, a horde of Space Invaders clones were made (Space Wars was one), but they were lost in the mists of time. Secondly, it's a lot easier to think of something that is simple and short than something that has to have all the requirements games have these days. Create a new arcade game idea. It's not that hard, just think of something. Do you think someone would publish it? No f***ing way.
The problem with arcade games is that there are so many available for FREE on the internet that only someone who's been living under a rock for the past few years would actually buy one retail anymore. What with PopCap games, YetiSports, and the juggernaut that is Snood, the only arcade games people buy are full versions of those same games. And even then few people do because a lot of people like myself get bored with the games after only a few levels. By that point you realize that the next 290 levels are going to be pretty similar to the first 10.
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Old 08-11-2004, 01:25 PM   #60
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Well, as you can see in my signature, I'm currently playing a totally non-violent arcade game - Ballance, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
In this (2004) game you have to guide a ball through 12 different puzzles. It's 3D and with a good physics engine. The thing that gets you addicted is the fact that by playing it you end up identifying yourself with the ball, and when the ball falls you can feel it in your stomach (at least I do).

As for FPS's, sure HL2, Doom 3 and others are great when it comes to graphics and physics, but Deus Ex 1 's perfect story-gameplay combination won't be matched. After all, these two games are still kill'em all games, while in DX you actually have a CHOICE. Hitman can also be mentioned, but by some reason I couldn't play those games.
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