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Old 03-21-2012, 07:06 AM   #21
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Its at its best when you approach it like a goodbye to the series.

The focus is squarely on fan favourites Ashley & Kaidan, Tali, Garrus and Liara from Mass Effect 1, Mordin and The Illusive Man from Mass Effect 2. Other characters from ME2 get insultingly brief cameos.

The main plot isn't worth over thinking (I know, because I did) and a lot of the missions really do feel like complete filler, because they are (the multiplayer game was re-purposed and stuck onto ME3).

It can feel like a underdeveloped Mass Effect 2.5 (or alternate universe Mass Effect 2, given how irrelevant Mass Effect 2 proves).

Here's hoping they put the IP away for a year or two and return to it fresh with new art assets and a story that's locked in (including the ending) from the very start.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:11 AM   #22
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It can feel like a underdeveloped Mass Effect 2.5 (or alternate universe Mass Effect 2, given how irrelevant Mass Effect 2 proves).

Here's hoping they put the IP away for a year or two and return to it fresh with new art assets and a story that's locked in (including the ending) from the very start.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:59 AM   #23
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I think it's just the last ten minutes of the game that are so incredibly bad that most gamers completely forget the rest of the game experience as soon as the credits run. The "31" score left by gamers is their immediate reaction to the game's ending. Critics are required to think their reviews through more thoroughly, so they're more likely to give the game a higher score. The game itself (before the last ten minutes) is pretty much amazing.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:17 PM   #24
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I read an interesting article about why there is a huge metacritic difference in games now not just ME3, and basically it boils down to the fact that when other products disappoint ppl have recourse such as returning the product and normally mainstream journalism sites have some ppl on their sides but thats not the case with games where you can't return the game and the growing disconnect with gaming journalism where the sites are dependent on game companies for income which many fans now feel that game reviewers are in the pockets of developers. So review bombing is the only direct way of getting their frustrations heard and felt. Me personally i thought the game was great other than ME3 went away from a lot of its RPG elements to appeal to new ppl, also i felt the ending was very lazy and it felt like a cop out and it left a very bad taste in my mouth.
This is probably one of the best reviews online about the whole game wth the ending problem and its mostly spoiler free if your interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFq531vkNOY
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #25
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This stuff has got so serious there is even an official reply from R. Muzyka, co-founder of Bioware. At least it shows they are worried.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:24 PM   #26
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This stuff has got so serious there is even an official reply from R. Muzyka, co-founder of Bioware. At least it shows they are worried.
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He thinks his games art form, how;trying hard to be like a movie is the idea
of his art concept.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:29 PM   #27
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In about 10 hours, so far ME3 has definitely been better than ME2 though maybe not quite as interesting as the first one. Many things have been polished since the last games even if Bioware falls for the same "sins" they always do. Still, in my opinion it's even a great game.

I'm not buying into the whole "Bioware are amazing writers" thing though. In my opinion they create interesting (if somewhat generic) stories with pretty average writing, just with a certain level of freedom of choice and a pretty large quantity of it. So far this one has felt better written than ME2, but it has had its issues too (though the characters and conversations with them aren't quite as awkward as they were in ME2, aside from some weird moments with Shepard).

Nevertheless, I'm having a lot of fun playing it, and it's definitely not worse (but clearly better) than ME2. And an ending is, in the end, just an ending. It's the stuff before that really matters.

And I agree (without having seen the ending), it seems like a pretty sad thing if they go and change the end now.
Hey Uptimist,

You probably know my opinions about games story lines pretty well, we've had some heated arguments in the past
I haven't played any of the ME games, I keep wanting to because everybody I talk to says it's fantastic.
Should I bother with it? I mean, it's a ton of time to spend with something you don't like, and knowing myself, if I get even past the middle of the first one I'll have to finish the trilogy.
You post made me pause, so, what say you?
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism.
The problem with trying to make player-authored stories as an art form is that by giving creative control to the player, developers also need to forfeit certain creative rights to make the formula work. Because the player is now the artist, a lot of this backlash is caused by Bioware forcing itself into the player's creative space at the most inopportune of times, much like someone scribbling all over someone else's painting.

Don't get me wrong, the rest of the game is still otherwise fantastic. The combat controls are really fun, the story has a lot of strong moments in it, some of the situations are quite challenging (but not impossible), and the cinematics are really epic. In spite of the controversy, it's still a top-notch game.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:46 AM   #29
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I think the disconnect in review scores comes from the fact that, as usual for Bioware games, ME3 has been both praised and criticized for the wrong reasons.

The ending doesn't make sense, but why would you expect Bioware to be able to wrap the series up in a sensible way in the first place? The first game ended with the evil living spaceship losing its powers because you killed the guy it was possessing. The second game, whose plot had nothing to do with the first, was about skanks in catsuits and playing psychiatrist to your military operation so they wouldn't die on the suicide mission, where you fought the monster from Contra 3 that the crab people were building from liquified human remains.

Regardless, dashed hopes for ME3 to salvage some sort of meaningful work of art out of this mess caused a lot of gamers to rate it a zero. Which is as wide off the mark as the collaborationist effort to puff the previous games up as serious art was. The gamers' tolerance for the sham was the weakest link in that chain, with the game critics still caught up in their own imaginary construction, but the game itself doesn't deserve the backlash.

ME3 is good, and I didn't care much for the previous two games. If one doesn't think too hard about the main plot points -which one shouldn't- there is some excellent atmosphere and space marine bro action going on in between. It's like a space James Bond, played by Jennifer Hale, in which you take control on occasion to shoot at some goofy creature. Pretty cool IMO.

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Old 03-22-2012, 02:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by marvio View Post
Hey Uptimist,

You probably know my opinions about games story lines pretty well, we've had some heated arguments in the past
For shame, I have to admit that at the moment I'm having a bit of trouble remembering details about what such arguments were about... If you can refresh my memory I can maybe give better suited advice, as it probably depends on how critical you are to especially Bioware's stuff... But nevertheless, I'll give my feelings (get ready for a rant, or at least a lot of blabbering)

Oh, and thanks for valuing my opinion so much
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I haven't played any of the ME games, I keep wanting to because everybody I talk to says it's fantastic.
Should I bother with it? I mean, it's a ton of time to spend with something you don't like, and knowing myself, if I get even past the middle of the first one I'll have to finish the trilogy.
You post made me pause, so, what say you?
Well, I think Mass Effect 1 was an excellent effort to combine a more traditional RPG with FPS elements. The story was interesting and it was well-built, it slowly starts to unravel and you have some decent open-endedness in the way you play it, and it manages to have a few nice plot-twists too. And the game had a great sense of exploration of the galaxy. The characters are pretty usual Bioware - if you tend to like them in their other games then there's no issues there, if you have problems with their characters then you'll have some of the same issues as always, but luckily the characters tend to be a bit better than usually. It's certainly interesting and fun enough to play through again, though in this (and I'll get to the same for ME2 where it's a very different reason) the main deterrent to replay comes from the slow exploration of unimportant planets (if you want to do it properly) with your Mako "car" which in some cases can get a bit tedious (though I wish they'd rather not taken it away and replaced it with the even-more-tedious (though not as time-consuming) planet scanning but just improved it).

In Mass Effect 2 they lost some of the magic in ME1. They decided to "streamline" pretty much everything, which was in some cases good but for the whole it went far too far. The "new" (that is, much improved) combat is more interesting than it was before, but the game also loses much of its old role-playingness. The story isn't so much a story as it is one mission from beginning to end, so that the main surprises come from how little there really is anything surprising - the story is definitely waaay streamlined. And they're so obsessed with their militaryness and especially "ooh, things are so desolate now, how will you make all these tough decisions?" that at least for me it started to feel a bit arduous. With the characters, Bioware seemed to get overly confident and thought they're the most profound writers ever, resulting in caricatures with syrupy drama. Also, they forgot about the open-endedness of your character to make the decisions he wants, and rather (if you want to be "at the top of your game") forces you to be either the ultimate paragon or ultimate renegade.

Now, I might make that sound worse than it really is, and I know there are people (very much on this forum) who will massively disagree with me, but you did ask for my opinions With all of that out of the way, I have to say that yes - I did still enjoy Mass Effect 2. I played it through twice (though the second time mainly just to get a very different save for ME3), and I liked it. However, any more I'd rather not play because while I enjoy the actual gameplay of it very much, the flaws in the story and writing become more and more obvious on each playthrough, and on the second playthrough I found myself having to load back several times because I was quick-jumping through the dialogue so much that I chose the wrong decisions in the dialogues every now and then. Also, the way that you don't have so much RPG elements is also a bit dull. It's starting to feel more like a shooter with RPG elements and open dialogue than RPG with shooter elements (which was the appeal to me in the first game)

Now, I'm not very far in ME3 yet. I can say that while they're still obsessed with having that desolate atmosphere and really squeezing all they can from that (and I'm sure they'll force an endless armada of choices where in each one something goes wrong), the story seems to be built better than ME2. Even the characters seem to be better written, and they're not just side-quests waiting to happen. They dumped, yet again, their planetary exploration for even more streamlined version, but this is a great improvement over ME2 so it's a good thing (and they manage to streamline it while giving it an interesting twist so it's not just going around gathering resources with a click of a button). Still, I miss going on "unimportant" planets and exploring them to find... you know, stuff. They've improved the combat and brought back more customability, even if it's not back at ME1's level. I think it's a pretty good compromise, adn overall I'm enjoying playing this far more than ME2, even if the "truth" tends to only come on a second replay. ME3 doesn't quite manage to be the perfect midway between ME2 and 1 I had hoped, but it still manages to compromise in the right direction.

So far, at least.

Now, as for whether one should play them at this point or not... I think that ME1 is definitely a game that, if you like RPGs, if you like scifi, etcetera, you probably should have a try at it. The storyline and all that is interesting enough, in my opinion, to get you through even if the action isn't totally your thing. And it was an important step, at the time, into a different kind of blend between genres.

ME2 is a game that if you liked ME1 and the way that it played, you'll probably want to play, if only to keep continuing the story. Or what little there is of it in this one. It is, however, seriously flawed compared to the first one and you shouldn't get your hopes up in regards to the story. Unfortunately this seems to be a game which is just a little halfway step in between the first and third ones, like an exercise. Still, it's enjoyable enough so you shouldn't quit playing through halfway.

ME3, well, I don't know yet I think ME1 is enjoyable as a stand-alone game, though I haven't played it in a while so I'm not sure if the age is starting to feel yet or not. Anyway, looking at them just storywise, ME1 is worth it just for the story, in ME2 the story is the weakest point (though not absolutely devastating, just very much below expectations) and ME3 hopefully might fix that to at least acceptable levels.

Now, like I said, I'm having a bit of trouble remembering your preferences, so maybe I can say more if you refresh my memory But generally - yes, I would suggest the first Mass Effect. After that's it's your own call

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Old 03-22-2012, 03:20 AM   #31
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Marvio I think it may have been me under a different guise, rather than my main man Upsie, with whom you disagreed. Regardless, what he said.

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Old 03-22-2012, 03:31 AM   #32
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... [In Mass Effect 2] they forgot about the open-endedness of your character to make the decisions he wants, and rather (if you want to be "at the top of your game") forces you to be either the ultimate paragon or ultimate renegade.
I'm sure a lot of people who played Mass Effect 2 missed out on some of the BEST lines of dialogue and a more dramatic story line because they felt so compelled to use the mind tricks.

Importing a save that avoided them, almost entirely, made for a better ME3 game. Because I hadn't finessed events skilfully through ME1&2 I had to face some consequences in ME3.

I think part of why the Mordin scene in ME3 gets overhyped is Paragons and Renegades finally face something they can't easily fix, and it was a result of 'best decisions' from ME1 & ME2. In my game I'd fucked up events in the prior games so badly that I was able to save Mordin...
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:32 AM   #33
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Real ending revealed:The Marauder SHIELDS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo&feature=player_embedded
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:07 AM   #34
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Real ending revealed



I had my own 'happy ending'
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:06 AM   #35
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I love the Mass Effect series. Obviously the combat pales in comparison to a modern WRPG like Deus Ex Human Revolution and its vast range of play style choice. However, you play these games to be moved.

The writing and the acting and the pacing and the settings and the themes - it's a very satisfying choose-your-own-adventure type of series that surpasses similar ambitious projects like Heavy Rain and one of the few games that will make you choke up.

I don't give a shit about this ending controversy. As long as more games of this ilk appealing to audiences who want interactive story development are being made then I'm a happy camper. Rockin' and a rollin'.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:41 AM   #36
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Well 2 days ago I was still laughing at all those raging nerds complaining about the ending in Mass Effect 3 but now that I finished reading Harry Potter, I know how disappointing a bad ending can be. I kind of understand them now lol.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:39 AM   #37
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I love the Mass Effect series. Obviously the combat pales in comparison to a modern WRPG like Deus Ex Human Revolution and its vast range of play style choice.
Wait, how is ME not a modern WRPG? It's W, it's RPG, and the third installment is one month old. Anyway, I do agree Deus Ex HR offers more variety in play style.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:11 AM   #38
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Wait, how is ME not a modern WRPG? It's W, it's RPG, and the third installment is one month old. Anyway, I do agree Deus Ex HR offers more variety in play style.
Sorry, I didn't know my comment made it sound like ME3 isn't a modern WRPG. I was making a comparison because they're in the same field.

The Witcher 2 is also an amazing WRPG I'd recommend.

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Well 2 days ago I was still laughing at all those raging nerds complaining about the ending in Mass Effect 3 but now that I finished reading Harry Potter, I know how disappointing a bad ending can be. I kind of understand them now lol.
It certainly verifies what we've known for years. Story in video games is important! John Carmack was wrong.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:43 AM   #39
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but now that I finished reading Harry Potter, I know how disappointing a bad ending can be.
So you're the raging chubby old guy wearing a hogwarts robe near my friend's house! What a twist!
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:08 AM   #40
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Cross-post from the "Last finished game"-thread


Mass Effect 3 - 5 / 5

Just finished Mass Effect 3, the epic conclusion of my favourite gaming trilogy. The first game was one of my favourite RPG's, the second game ended up as one of my favourite games ever. And now the third game lives up to the others' reputation. And how!

The third game improves on the "dumbed-down elements" of Mass Effect 2. Customizable weapon mods are back (although in short supply compared to the first game, but at least they're back), powers are expanded heavily, planet scanning is greatly improved (and had a nice mini-game twist in it), and the gameplay is a lot more dynamic (the maps are less corridor-y and a lot more open to enemy flanking). It's basically a good middle ground between the RPG-elements of ME1 and ME2.

Compared to ME2, the dialogue is a lot less badass and a lot more gloomy, but considering the billions of people dying in this installment, that's understandable. And I love the fact that practically EVERYBODY makes a cameo appearance in the third game without being too in-your-face with it. Agreed, some characters could've gotten a bit of a larger role this time around (especially my Krogan buddies Grunt and Wrex), but overall, I was very happy with the story and the character interaction.
Heck, ME3 is simply an emotional rollercoaster. And there are some epic sacrifices being made...

In the 47 hours it took me to reach the end, I have thought at multiple moments that I was playing the best game ever. Despite the flaws it has, I'm calling it the most awesomest trilogy of all time. And don't get me wrong: there are flaws. The first game had clunky vehicle control, the second game had tedious scanning, and this one had a couple of bad design decisions - most of which I blame on EA's pull over BioWare.

I hate the fact that they have Day One DLC. I hated it when they did that in ME2 (with Zaeed) and I hate the fact that I have to pay extra for the Eden Prime mission and an extra squad member who's not unimportant for the Mass Effect universe. This gets chalked up to the greedy bastards at EA (who've used these nickle-and-dime tactics a LOT these last few years).

I hated ME3's multiplayer campaign. I'm invested in the story of the trilogy (as proven by my 3 playthroughs of ME1, totalling 133 hours, and my 3 playthroughs of ME2, totalling 131 hours), but I'm not THAT interested in the action.
Being forced to play online in a multiplayer campaign to get a better result in the single player portion is something that's just not done. Especially if you go through the trouble of including a very easy "narrative" game mode where the difficulty is so low you could go through the entire game unarmed and come out unscathed. The multiplayer campaign reeks of DRM.
And the multiplayer isn't even good (well, at least not for me). It's exactly the type of multiplayer FPS that I don't like: surviving swarms of AI's on a small map - not my thing.
Luckily my Google-fu is strong and I was able to bypass the entire multiplayer portion of the game by doubling all war asset values in the game files. That meant that my Galactic Readiness of 50% now gave me as many war assets as I would have originally had with 100% Galactic Readiness. If you think that's cheating, bite me. It's basically me giving EA the finger.
I finished my full male Paragon Adept playthrough (of all three games with all DLC) with an Effective Military Strength of 6884 - which is not too shabby. According to my saves, that's taken me almost 142 hours - so yeah, I'm invested in the story!

And now, let's (finally) talk about the ending controversy. To be honest, I'm fine with the ending as it is.
Sure, there are plot holes, but suspension of disbelief carried me through them the first time. Right now, I wouldn't mind the game staying as it is. I'm not sure if I'd be this leniant on a second playthrough, but for now I'm good. I definitely understand the controversy, though.
Spoiler:
I chose the Synthesis ending. I always figured this trilogy would end with Shepard dying, so I was prepared for that. And sure, it's odd to see Joker fleeing with the Normandy (he had no reason to do so), and it's even more odd to see one of my squad mates - who was just behind me in the beam run - ON the Normandy, but I can chalk that up to lazy writing / lazy cutscene development, however odd that may be in a deep trilogy like this. It can't be due to a lack of time (or the Day One DLC wouldn't be there), but if it's a slip then it's only a minor one, imo.
I had enough closure to be satisfied - the conversations in the FOB made sure of that, so even if it would be nice to see what happens with your squad mates AFTER the end, I don't mind that they left that open.
Especially not because it's only the last five minutes of a 140+ hour adventure that are not 100% up to scratch with the rest. I'll call this entire controversy "ridiculous fan entitlement", and I'm not afraid to say that "modern gamers are whiny bitches".

But I have to admit: the Indoctrination Theory has a LOT going for it! It takes care of ALL the plot holes, it can be traced back to the first game (check this video for all details) and it would be a twist that's as awesome as the one in Knights of the Old Republic...
Unfortunately: no attempt whatsoever has been made to clarify it ingame. Sure, now that all the details are added up (like in that vid I linked to) it makes sense. But you basically need to see that video to understand it. If that was the twist they intended in the game then they did several things wrong: it's not clear enough that THAT was what was going on, and if it's true, then they didn't release a finished game.

No matter what BioWare does now, they're basically screwed.
If they don't change the ending, then they'll be left with hundreds of thousands of pissed off gamers. Most of whom seem fanatic enough never to buy anything off BioWare or EA ever again.
If they change it to a new ending, then they're admitting that they did a poor job the first time around and they'll be setting a dangerous precedent that will cause game developers to be at the gamers' mercy for years to come. This last part will take all risks out of game design, lowering overall quality and potentially crippling the entire gaming industry.
And if BioWare had intended the Indoctrination Theory all along, then they purposely withheld the real finale for the game. Seriously, if they release DLC in a few weeks or months that gives credit to the entire Indoctrination Theory, then that means that Mass Effect 3 is ultimately a game that had its finale cut to nickle-and-dime everyone further. This will wreck both EA and BioWare's reputation.
And even if they'd release it for free, given all the complaints and flack they've been getting, the damage is actually already done.


Yet, despite all this controversy surrounding the ending, Mass Effect 3 is still one of the very best games I ever had the privilege of playing.

I'll hold off my second playthrough until I see where they're going with the DLC-rumours (and to avoid Mass Effect fatigue), but that second playthrough WILL come!
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Last edited by TimovieMan; 04-04-2012 at 09:37 AM. Reason: Typo's and grammatical mistakes. Proofread much?
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