[Oscar]

I would say a hardcore rpg is one based on lots of stats with success or failure based on them, with very little or no reflex action. Adventure games have quests, conversation systems and I don't think crafting, alchemy make an RPG.

Success or failure in Skyrim combat depends mostly on my skill with the keyboard or mouse, not my character's attributes. I can start a new game and beat a giant by firing arrows and running away successively. That's much less 'hardcore' than TOEE where character attributes are everything.

Tell me, if Skyrim is a 'hardcore RPG', what is an example of a one that isn't hardcore?

[Burns11]

It's role playing game, not role playing spreadsheet.

[Oscar]

Originally Posted by Burns11

It's role playing game, not role playing spreadsheet.

In 20 years, Tomb Raider will be known as a role playing game.

[TiAgUh]

This is kinda like the zombies/mummies argument from the other thread... you should know better by now mr. monolith!

[Schneckchen ^.^]

Skyrim is as much of a roleplaying game as Dreamfall is an old school point and click adventure.

It's in the RPG genre but some games just veer farther off from what defines the genre than others.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

This is kinda like the zombies/mummies argument from the other thread... you should know better by now mr. monolith!

Why? He just said the game isn't hardcore because the game doesn't rely to much on skills or stats, which is complete bullshit.

Not to mention what Oscar and Burns said.

Not to mention to say skills/stats aren't a factor is more BS. Sure you may not see a six sided die or some exaggerated number system, but it doesn't change the fact that things are still based on numbers and the chances those numbers are hit. How the hell do you think people program these types of games, an impressive AI that decides when things should work?

If a PC game (for the console debate) or a shit load of stats on screen (or in the pc vs console debate with an insane interface) defines if its hardcore or not is a stupid elitist argument.

[Oscar]

It's only elitist if you think RPGs are "superior" to other types of games, like action games. In fact - and no offence intended by this whatsoever - it is you who is being "elitist" because you are offended that I don't consider Skyrim a hardcore RPG.

You really can't see the different between these two types of games? -
1. A game which you enter fixed discrete commands, often turn-based, and the results of those commands are completely dependent on the ruleset and your character's statistics
2. A game which you control your character in a realtime environment involving action; the result of combat depends on your skill with the controller, in addition to statistical calculations.

Surely you can see that, if only by a fraction, 2 involves less role-playing than 1.

[Schneckchen ^.^]

According to Monolith's way of thinking, Call of Duty is a hardcore RPG. No use arguing with a guy who thinks like that.

[TimovieMan]

Just making sure I get your point: 2 would be for instance aiming and shooting FPS-style in Fallout 3, and 1 would be using VATS to do the same in that game?

Pardon the Fallout 3 comparison, it's the only example I could think of.


As an aside: is there anything even remotely turn-based in Skyrim? Cause I much prefer turn-based action over reflexes...

[TiAgUh]

^ If it's anything like Oblivion: it's not fast-paced action. The enemies are slow enough for you to drink your tea between all the bloody slaying before it gets cold.

Originally Posted by Monolith

Why? (...)

Cause defining what's a "harcore" rpg nowadays is pretty hopeless bro. Yours a more modern view of what a game needs to have for it to be harcore and other views like Oscar's are more archaic/oldschool.

[Gabe]

Now who think this a soft-core rpg?

[TiAgUh]

TimovieMan does! Let's lynch him!

[Oscar]

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

Just making sure I get your point: 2 would be for instance aiming and shooting FPS-style in Fallout 3, and 1 would be using VATS to do the same in that game?

Pardon the Fallout 3 comparison, it's the only example I could think of.

Haven't played Fallout 3 but doesn't VATS simplify combat?

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

Cause defining what's a "harcore" rpg nowadays is pretty hopeless bro. Yours a more modern view of what a game needs to have for it to be harcore and other views like Oscar's are more archaic/oldschool.

Correct.

[Owskie]

this is the first bethesda game i have enjoyed.. and despite all bethesda games beta-like presentation, the game fixed alot of things ive disliked with the series in the past... but the combat is archaic and feels 10 years old - outside of that, this is the first one ive continued to play. it is rather enjoyable.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Schneckchen ^.^

According to Monolith's way of thinking, Call of Duty is a hardcore RPG. No use arguing with a guy who thinks like that.

Note: Sorry for the long post. I just had to cover all bases once again since it seems that people don't know how to read or lack the ability to comprehend simple ideas.

Does it? Does COD have Quests? Does it have a vast (possibly) open playable world? Does it have dynamic/non-linear conversation mechanics? Is damage calculated based on dice rolls or chance based on your skills?

Really?

You can say i'm calling everything Hardcore, but seriously. Look at the game. Skyrim can be hardcore, why? Because its all about how you play it. Still think i'm a raging elitist lunitic? No, i'm the person that doesn't deny a way of playing the game.

What is hardcore? Hardcore is defined by how close it is to the original design/person/concept. Is COD a hardcore RPG? No, because the only thing remotely RPG is Experience to unlock perks and weapons.

Skyrim has every single thing that makes a D&D pen and paper game. If you haven't noticed, it does a better job than previous games because you can actually play the game you want to play, choose the character you want to be, live life in a world without someone infinite possibilities.

So, in the end, are you seriously going to accuse me of saying that any game is a Hardcore RPG, yet ignore everything I've said that explains why I say Skyrim can be a Hardcore RPG?


Not to mention calling me Elitist. Do you even know what Elitist means? Someone who thinks there is only one way. Am I saying there is only one way, in terms of my thinking? No, of course not. I simply stated why the game can be a Hardcore RPG, yet you shot it down while ignoring everything I've said in my original post.

To answer the question about what I think isn't a Hardcore RPG? I already said it. Anything that isn't a pretty much anything that isn't a western rpg. Which was a joke, but if you know what i'm talking about Western RPG's are pretty much derivatives of the D&D game formula.

Before anyone even replies to this, READ MY POSTS. I've already given sufficient evidence to my reasoning and opinion.

Edit: Also Oscar. So your opinion of a hardcore RPG is where you do nothing and your stats do everything. lol No.

Action in a Pen & Paper game, the ability to position your character on a board or use range or melee is the equivalent of skyrim, with the addition of more "Advanced" gameplay.

Furthermore, Elder Scrolls since Arena minus the spinoff's and ignoring Oblivion, have been very hardcore games. Keep ignoring what makes a game hardcore, let alone what makes an RPG hardcore and you'll have a silly old man saying one bias opinion to another.

[Oscar]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Before anyone even replies to this, READ MY POSTS. I've already given sufficient evidence to my reasoning and opinion.

Yes, and it's that reasoning we're disputing. You can't get off so easily by pre-empting our posts with a "if you disagree with me, you haven't read or understood my post"

Edit: Also Oscar. So your opinion of a hardcore RPG is where you do nothing and your stats do everything. lol No.

Action in a Pen & Paper game, the ability to position your character on a board or use range or melee is the equivalent of skyrim, with the addition of more "Advanced" gameplay.

Furthermore, Elder Scrolls since Arena minus the spinoff's and ignoring Oblivion, have been very hardcore games. Keep ignoring what makes a game hardcore, let alone what makes an RPG hardcore and you'll have a silly old man saying one bias opinion to another.

Let's go into more detail then. Let's take two different games and a particular skill - say lockpicking.

In Game A, the success or failure of a lockpick attempt will depend completely on the character's statistics. So when you try to pick a lock the game either comes up with "success" or "fail" depending whether your character's stats are high enough.

In Game B, you still have lockpicking stats but when you pick a lock an animated lock appears on the screen. You manipulate the lockpick in the lock using the mouse and keyboard and success or failure depends on whether you have the lockpick in the right position.

Now clearly, Skyrim is my prototype for Game B, but I'd be interested to know whether you think there is as much "role-playing" in Game B's lockpicking as there is in Game A's, and why you think so.

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

TimovieMan does! Let's lynch him!

Gaaaah! I've never even played an Elder Scrolls game! I have no opinion, I swear! *whimper*

Originally Posted by Oscar

Haven't played Fallout 3 but doesn't VATS simplify combat?

It pauses the game and gives you the option to shoot at a specific body part of one of the opponents and gives you a percentage chance of hitting the target (based on your stats and the distance and size of the part you're aiming at).

It basically takes away the need to aim manually (FPS-style). Probably a good help for console gamers since aiming is a lot easier with a keyboard and mouse than with a gamepad.




Regarding Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim: how difficult is combat? Is there an option to pause before 'assigning' your actions in combat?
Is there a game I can compare this series to?

These games have been on my radar for quite some time now, but I need to be certain I'll have a good chance of liking it, which so far I don't...

[kuze]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Note: Sorry for the long post. I just had to cover all bases once again since it seems that people don't know how to read or lack the ability to comprehend simple ideas.

God you're unpleasant.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Oscar

Yes, and it's that reasoning we're disputing. You can't get off so easily by pre-empting our posts with a "if you disagree with me, you haven't read or understood my post"



Let's go into more detail then. Let's take two different games and a particular skill - say lockpicking.

In Game A, the success or failure of a lockpick attempt will depend completely on the character's statistics. So when you try to pick a lock the game either comes up with "success" or "fail" depending whether your character's stats are high enough.

In Game B, you still have lockpicking stats but when you pick a lock an animated lock appears on the screen. You manipulate the lockpick in the lock using the mouse and keyboard and success or failure depends on whether you have the lockpick in the right position.

Now clearly, Skyrim is my prototype for Game B, but I'd be interested to know whether you think there is as much "role-playing" in Game B's lockpicking as there is in Game A's, and why you think so.

You failed to mention that lockpicking in skyrim isn't that basic. There are various skill levels of lockpicking. Depending on the way your stats are setup, you can attempt a harder level, but the chance of your lockpick breaking depends on your skill stats. On top of that, other sub skills gained through branches will help increase the dead zone in which the knob will start to turn. It all depends on your skills/stats.

That chance of lockpick breaking is exactly if not a less in your face version of the "Success" and "Fail" method of your Game A. Just with actually content.

Sure it may not be a "Success" or "Fail" or one of your ideas of a Black & White game design. Though my point still stands. Are you arguing that Skyrim isn't a pen & paper style game? Because that doesn't necessarily mean "Hardcore" or not.

Originally Posted by kuze

God you're unpleasant.

How irrelevant.

[UPtimist]

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

This is kinda like the zombies/mummies argument from the other thread... you should know better by now mr. monolith!

I was thinking about the "whether Portal is an action game (or adventure game) or not" argument...

Originally Posted by Monolith

How irrelevant.

Not really, considering if you're trying to win an argument, why alienate everyone by being a jerk?