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Old 04-06-2004, 04:37 AM   #1
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Default The Philosophical Roots of Computer Game Design

Ernest Adams has published the full text of his 2004 GDC lecture. It was an excellent presentation, and makes for a great read. I very much recommend it, and I very much agree with him (as I suspect many on these forums will).

http://www.designersnotebook.com/Lec...oots/roots.htm
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:52 AM   #2
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that was just a very, very, very cool article

oh wait - let me put it better:

while(true)
{
cout<<"Very, ";
}

cout<<"Cool"


^^^ achieving the moronic by the classical :-D
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:06 AM   #3
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I think I agree with him for the most part. Basically, Mr. Adams talks about abstraction of technology; and I feel that this is the right direction for the industry.

What I don't like is how he says everything in the article. I don't want to sound like a stuck-up jerk...but I don't like how he said what he said. How the word 'nerds' is mentioned as derogatory and how people who listen to Metallica are somehow incapable of appreciating literature and philosophy and incorporate those values in games. I don't want to spark a controversial discussion here, I just wanted my opinion to be heard.
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:10 AM   #4
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I agree. I also disagree with Adams about The Matrix...

... great speech though.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:24 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mycroft
but I don't like how he said what he said. How the word 'nerds' is mentioned as derogatory and how people who listen to Metallica are somehow incapable of appreciating literature and philosophy and incorporate those values in games.
It is true. Metalica fans a moronic fucking rednecks.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:32 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aicanaro
that was just a very, very, very cool article

oh wait - let me put it better:

while(true)
{
cout<<"Very, ";
}

cout<<"Cool"


^^^ achieving the moronic by the classical :-D
That is a rather superfluous bit of code and it doesn't work cause it would spout out:
Quote:
Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very,
Indefinitely. You suck.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:33 AM   #7
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There's nothing wrong with using offensive examples if you don't really mean them as actually offensive, at least not in a 100% serious sense. I didn't feel like he was actually condemning "Metallica fans" so much as using it as a 2 word shortcut to reference a stereotype we all know about and can relate things to.

edit: in fact, he makes disclaimers about use of those stereotypes within one sentence of using them!
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:43 AM   #8
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I don't listen to metallica, but i also disagree with the statement that people who listen to/play music like that don't appreciate the arts. in fact, a lot of guitarists are able to play classical/non-metal music but simpley choose to play what they like.

Also, i don't find the word 'nerd' offensive. i think that every group of people has thier own view of 'nerds'. it's such a broad term, how can it be considered offensive??
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:57 AM   #9
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Anyone complaining about Ernest Adams making jokes about Metallica or The Matrix is clearly missing the point.
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Old 04-06-2004, 09:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek
Anyone complaining about Ernest Adams making jokes about Metallica or The Matrix is clearly missing the point.
I get the point Marek. What upsets me is a person like him resorting to such tripe to get his message across.

[font='Times New Roman',Times,Serif,serif]
Quote:
And even if it’s no longer true that most game developers are nerds, it is true that nerd enthusiasms and nerd limitations and nerd philosophy are still at the very heart of our culture.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I found this particular quote to be extremely offensive. "...are still at the very heart of our culture." He makes it sound as if it were a virulent disease. 'Nerd limitations' ? I beg your pardon ?

I want to reiterate that I agree with what he says. That Mr. Carmack and co. -the 'nerds'- couldn't make a decent narrative laden game to save their lives. Because that is what he says between the lines. Which is why abstraction of technology is necessary...to promote creativity and diversity in games. Let not the creator of the canvas only be allowed to paint the picture, allow an artist do it. But don't discount the creator of the canvas. Don't demean him.

[/font]
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Old 04-06-2004, 10:45 PM   #11
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Great article/speech.
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mycroft
I get the point Marek. What upsets me is a person like him resorting to such tripe to get his message across.

[font='Times New Roman',Times,Serif,serif]
I don't know about anyone else here, but I found this particular quote to be extremely offensive. "...are still at the very heart of our culture." He makes it sound as if it were a virulent disease. 'Nerd limitations' ? I beg your pardon ?


Well, in your next paragraph you very clearly imply nerd limitations with your painter/canvas maker comment, so I'm not sure your inference of "virulent disease" is entirely warrented. I mean, nerd philosophy and limitations ARE essentially at the heart of game culture. Should he have inserted an extra clause saying something like "Note: nerd tendences should not be considered a virulent disease"?

Quote:
I want to reiterate that I agree with what he says. That Mr. Carmack and co. -the 'nerds'- couldn't make a decent narrative laden game to save their lives. Because that is what he says between the lines. Which is why abstraction of technology is necessary...to promote creativity and diversity in games. Let not the creator of the canvas only be allowed to paint the picture, allow an artist do it. But don't discount the creator of the canvas. Don't demean him.
Quote:
[/font]
He's not demeaning or discounting them. He very explicitly says that they deserve all the accolades they get. The order of the day in this thread seems to be isolating Adams' individual statements, even when his justification is a mere sentence away.
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remixor
Well, in your next paragraph you very clearly imply nerd limitations with your painter/canvas maker comment, so I'm not sure your inference of "virulent disease" is entirely warrented. I mean, nerd philosophy and limitations ARE essentially at the heart of game culture. Should he have inserted an extra clause saying something like "Note: nerd tendences should not be considered a virulent disease"?
Here's the thing...I agree with his 'nerd limitation' comment. Hence my painter/canvas maker analogy. The extra clause may have been superfluous. However, you'd think a speaker like him would find subtler ways to get his message across. I agree with what he says. But the phrase 'nerd limitations' sounds extremely arrogant. Actually, most of the article sounds a bit arrogant. What gives credibility to his words anyway ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by remixor
He's not demeaning or discounting them. He very explicitly says that they deserve all the accolades they get. The order of the day in this thread seems to be isolating Adams' individual statements, even when his justification is a mere sentence away.
Yeah. The justifications seem very convenient don't they ? I was aware of the justifications mentioned both by Jake and You(I did read the darn article didn't I). I was aware of the 'dreadful stereotype' disclaimer, yet I'm shocked that such a statement was made in the first place. The same goes for the John Carmack sentence. Had it been made by someone else, I probably may not have cared so much. I think the fault partly lies with me, I had an enormous amount of respect for this man. And here I am questioning his credibility...
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Old 04-07-2004, 12:08 AM   #14
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I still don't see what's so offensive about his statement.
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:33 AM   #15
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Thanks for the link, remixor.

As soon as I started reading this, the name "Sokal" popped into my head. Many of the criticisms of Syberia are based on the game not following the classic XYZ game rules, when clearly the whole GOAL of the game was to present a more artistic, atmospheric experience. Very much a French vs. English distinction in that regard. (And no, I'm not rationalizing all of Syberia's faults by saying this).

Mycroft, I really don't see anything offensive in this, either. It might be if Adams himself was above his own distinction, but he's not. He IS a nerd, and knows he's a nerd. Who else would say something like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adams as nerd/dork/geek
As a programmer, I find that what turns me on is thinking about ways of representing the world mathematically, and simulating the world algorithmically.
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:45 AM   #16
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I hope that this isn't a "'Nerd' is an offensive term, the correct term is 'geek'" thing. Save that for Slashdot please. What he said was completely non-offensive, unless you were for some reason looking to be offended.
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Old 04-07-2004, 10:11 AM   #17
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I don't know where I read/saw this, but whatever the source said that nerds are people who know useless crap like the number of people on the Enterprise (Star Trek), while geeks know useful stuff like programming. I thought it was a pretty funny interpretation.
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Old 04-07-2004, 02:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer
Thanks for the link, remixor.

As soon as I started reading this, the name "Sokal" popped into my head. Many of the criticisms of Syberia are based on the game not following the classic XYZ game rules, when clearly the whole GOAL of the game was to present a more artistic, atmospheric experience. Very much a French vs. English distinction in that regard. (And no, I'm not rationalizing all of Syberia's faults by saying this).
It's too bad these ends didn't carry over to the means of puzzle design and interaction. I can understand your point, but to me the puzzles felt so mechanical and rote as to utterly contradict much of the excellent atmosphere the game presented, and Kate's interactions simply didn't take advantage of that atmosphere. I think the chief cause of this problem is simply a result of Sokal not actually being a game designer. I'm convinced that if he acted as "creative director", or some similar role, and was paired with someone more well-versed in the practical side of making a good adventure game, better things would result. I guess essentially what I'm saying is that Sokal's vision was indeed more artistic, perhaps in line with what Adams says we need, but ironically his presentation ended up being fairly half and half. And I know you said you weren't rationalizing Syberia's faults, so I'm not actually arguing what you said, I'm just taking your point and applying it to my feelings about the game.

Quote:
Mycroft, I really don't see anything offensive in this, either. It might be if Adams himself was above his own distinction, but he's not. He IS a nerd, and knows he's a nerd. Who else would say something like:
Yes, exactly. For crying out loud, he said he experienced great joy at discovering one implementation of arrays in game programming.
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