[Intrepid Homoludens]

8-) Lookin' good! More new screeshots at the official site. Game is scheduled to launch second week May in North America (PC, Xbox), and first week June in Europe (PC).

[Dimensio]

Wonder if it'll be as much of a disappointment as Deus Ex: IW.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Better not be.

i never played the first deus x, is it anygood? i'm not a big FPS gamer but if there are other element in it like a decent story line then i'll probibly give it a try.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by guybrush_guy

i never played the first deus x, is it anygood? i'm not a big FPS gamer but if there are other element in it like a decent story line then i'll probibly give it a try.

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[Kingzjester]

You know, I tried to play the first thief, I really did. I gave my best. But every time I would approach that fellow guarding the basement and when I would run towards the back of his neck to take him down, he would start screaming and call the guards. No metter how close I got to him and hit him it was never enough. So, ok, never mind. Then I tried to just kill everyone I ran into but I ran out of arrows. I was not having fun with that game.

[Kingzjester]

As for Deus Ex, I got somewhere to the third level and just stopped playing the game. It didn't hold me long enough.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

You know, I tried to play the first thief, I really did. I gave my best. But every time I would approach that fellow guarding the basement and when I would run towards the back of his neck to take him down, he would start screaming and call the guards. No metter how close I got to him and hit him it was never enough. So, ok, never mind. Then I tried to just kill everyone I ran into but I ran out of arrows. I was not having fun with that game.

In other words, you suck at pure stealth, i.e. you have no patience or cunning. Sorry, Kingz, but that's it, this isn't your kind of game. First of all, YOU DO NOT RUN TO ANY GUARD. This is Thief, not Quake III. Hmmm, now I remember several ways I got through that basement and through subsequent levels:

* BEFORE anything, study the layout and lighting of the room, corridor, cavern, or street in relation to any guard or creature.
* Study the guards' patterns, time your move, and sneak past them when they're furthest away (if you choose not to kill or blackjack them).
* Keep tabs on any small objects you can throw to distract guards away from you. Shooting arrows strategically can also draw attention away from you.
* Stone and metal groundings make noise when walked upon, grass and carpet, and moss arrows do not.
* You getting it now?

I think a lot of people grossly misunderstood the concept behind Thief. Resourcefulness, cunning, strategizing, and an almost obscenely concentrated level of patience are rule here, not blazing in, not killing everything in sight, not showing off your fragging skills.

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

As for Deus Ex, I got somewhere to the third level and just stopped playing the game. It didn't hold me long enough.

Well, that might make sense considering it wasn't made by Tim? But seriously, not your kind of game, either.

[simpson_yellow]

Originally Posted by guybrush_guy

i never played the first deus x, is it anygood? i'm not a big FPS gamer but if there are other element in it like a decent story line then i'll probibly give it a try.

Deus Ex is good but I would recommend System Shock 2 ahead of it. It's FPS/RPG hybrid like Deus Ex, but it's a much tighter game. Better story (I thought Deus Ex tried too hard to be convoluted, and failed to maintain interest toward the end), and kick ass cyber horror atmosphere. Play it with headphones and with the lights off. You won't regret it. One of the most memorable non-adventures I've ever played.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

In other words, you suck at pure stealth, i.e. you have no patience or cunning. Sorry, Kingz, but that's it, this isn't your kind of game. First of all, YOU DO NOT RUN TO ANY GUARD. This is Thief, not Quake III. Hmmm, now I remember several ways I got through that basement and through subsequent levels:

* BEFORE anything, study the layout and lighting of the room, corridor, cavern, or street in relation to any guard or creature.
* Study the guards' patterns, time your move, and sneak past them when they're furthest away (if you choose not to kill or blackjack them).
* Keep tabs on any small objects you can throw to distract guards away from you. Shooting arrows strategically can also draw attention away from you.
* Stone and metal groundings make noise when walked upon, grass and carpet, and moss arrows do not.
* You getting it now?

I think a lot of people grossly misunderstood the concept behind Thief. Resourcefulness, cunning, strategizing, and an almost obscenely concentrated level of patience are rule here, not blazing in, not killing everything in sight, not showing off your fragging skills.

I always play stealth in RPGs, I like it, it is just that I found Thief unforgiving... So anyway, this is how it went: After trying the front door twice, I decided that that was not the way, so (if I remember correctly) there is a roundabout alley that I took (there were some arrows in an alcove behind something that looked like a electric generator, or am I confusing games here? No... there was no generator, I'm just fucking with ya, it was a water hydrant - that's it - a water hydrant). The alley took me to a well house with a drunk fellow in front of it past whom I managed to sneak easily, and I found myself in the basement. I listened to the two fellows talk from the shadows and followed them when they moved on. At the end of the basement, right before the stairs upwardly, there is a small well-lit hall with somewhat straighter masonry where a single old man patrolls. I would wait for him to turn away and walk away from me, when I would run out of the shadows and try to hit him in the back of the head with my trusty shillelagh (or was it a bag of ball bearings?). I think you would agree that this was a very deft way of dispatching a nuisance stealthily. Alas, no matter how hard I tried, how close I ran into the guy's back and went for the hit, the man would start screaming and run upstairs... I liked Half-Life and I always play a Thief in RPGs, so why can't I make this work?

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Well, that might make sense considering it wasn't made by Tim? But seriously, not your kind of game, either.

It is my kind of game if I were making one, alas, not if I were playing it. I always try to kill or tranquilize everything that moves and pillage it, which means I never have any ammo...

[The Seed]

I tried playing the Deus Ex 2 demo, which uses the same engine as this. The one thing I learned from it? My graphics card isn't good enough to support it, if it were not for this little snag then i'd be extremely excited about Thief 3.

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

It is my kind of game if I were making one, alas, not if I were playing it. I always try to kill or tranquilize everything that moves and pillage it, which means I never have any ammo...

I did that in Deus Ex. I never had any problems with ammo. Especially not when I did away with everyone using the baton. If you kill people, don't waste more than one shot on them. It is bad tactics to do so.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by ragnar

I did that in Deus Ex. I never had any problems with ammo. Especially not when I did away with everyone using the baton. If you kill people, don't waste more than one shot on them. It is bad tactics to do so.

See, with the electric baton thing, I always seem to have to use two hits per person. Perhaps I should try hitting them in the neck?

[ragnar]

Yes, the neck is always better to hit on. The enemies that stands still are possible to go up and against (preferable crawl to him to make sure you are quiet), then stand up behind him and hit. Btw, if you have invested in some low-tech skills you can use the non-electric baton too (the electric was called riot prod iirc).

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

I think a lot of people grossly misunderstood the concept behind Thief. Resourcefulness, cunning, strategizing, and an almost obscenely concentrated level of patience are rule here, not blazing in, not killing everything in sight, not showing off your fragging skills.

Hey, what happend to "meditative"? I found that much more descriptive.

I finished Thief and it deserves all the praises it gets for quality and genre innovation, but I didn't like it nearly as much as as many do. It WAS too unforgiving in places, and I found the strategizing to be fairly limited and repetitive. I'd guess that's why they added the undead stuff. Did they improve that with Thief II?

I actually preferred Splinter Cell as a better balance of stealth, action, and strategic CHOICE, so I'm looking forward to Pandora Tomorrow more than Thief 3. That said, I'm eager to see what the Thief team has up its sleeve. Count me among those who aren't put off by the 3rd person addition.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Singer

Hey, what happend to "meditative"? I found that much more descriptive.

I reread my post, and the idea of 'meditating' on a guard sounded too weird to me .

I finished Thief and it deserves all the praises it gets for quality and genre innovation, but I didn't like it nearly as much as as many do. It WAS too unforgiving in places, and I found the strategizing to be fairly limited and repetitive. I'd guess that's why they added the undead stuff. Did they improve that with Thief II

I have to confess, I haven't actually finished Thief, although I left off deep enough into it to intuit (heh!) the essence and nuances of the gameplay. I did not like the zombie levels (Thief was made at the time that zombies were just too fucking fashionable in games) but I did love the possibilities it had for strategizing. For example, knowing that burricks hate zombies, I often lured the undead to an innocent burrick that was otherwise in my way. As they got 'acquainted' with each other I snuck past. Saves holy water and water arrows, that's for sure!

The reason I couldn't finish the game was that I had acquired a new CPU and the old Celeron was in bad shape, couldn't transfer the save game files over. I installed the game in my new rig but the sound was jumpy and I never figured out why. You know how absolutely vital sound is when playing Thief. Once I find a solution I will definitely jump back into it after such a long time. It's that good for me.

I actually preferred Splinter Cell as a better balance of stealth, action, and strategic CHOICE, so I'm looking forward to Pandora Tomorrow more than Thief 3. That said, I'm eager to see what the Thief team has up its sleeve. Count me among those who aren't put off by the 3rd person addition.

That's interesting, because I found Thief to offer far more choices in how to accomplish any given mission. I also feel that the sound design in Thief trumps Splinter Cell's ten times over. I mean, I could just simply play Thief blindfolded, that's how fluidly exquisite the sound is. I'm finding Splinter Cell to be too 'on-the-rails' and 'lead-you-by-the-hand' for my taste, but it's still a great game. However, the level design in Thief is simply ingenius! Remember the mission where you had to steal that magic sword? There were so many rooms in that mansion, and leading up to the atrium where the sword was kept. It was incredible for me and very time consuming, part of it spent having to decide which pathway to go, each one was guarded very well. And the level design and soundtrack for the level where you had to find the Horn of Quintus had me dreaming, almost floating.

I also have Thief II: The Metal Age but haven't played it yet. I promised myself I'd play them all in order, so I can't touch it yet until I finish Thief: The Dark Project. It's still my benchmark as far as pure stealth, I consider it far more refined and elegant than Splinter Cell and more sophisticated in its simplicity than Deus Ex or Hitman.

As far as point of view, I'm gonna stay hardcore and play Thief: Deadly Shadows in first person. Believe me, it's a shitload more suspenseful that way, and more immersive. From what I read, though, that this game's gonna do a few missions and/or sequences only in 3rd person so there's nothing I can do about that except switch back to 1st person immediately after.

[Jackal]

You're absolutely right about the level design in Thief offering infinitely more possibilities than Splinter Cell, Trep. SC was extremely linear in terms of path, no doubt about it. I should have said tactical choice, not strategic. More gadgets and weapons and physical abilities simply offered more variety in terms of handling any individual scenario. No way to approach the scenario from an entirely different perspective, though, like Thief or Deus Ex (still haven't gotten around to Hitman yet).

I openly admit it's my lack of either obscene OR meditative levels of patience that shape my preference. After a handful of reloads in pure stealth, a double-tap was a welcome option. ... Never killed a guard in Thief, though. Just couldn't.

I also feel the need to play Thief II before Deadly Shadows, so looks like I've got a lot of sneakin' to do!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Singer

You're absolutely right about the level design in Thief offering infinitely more possibilities than Splinter Cell, Trep. SC was extremely linear in terms of path, no doubt about it. I should have said tactical choice, not strategic. More gadgets and weapons and physical abilities simply offered more variety in terms of handling any individual scenario. No way to approach the scenario from an entirely different perspective, though, like Thief or Deus Ex (still haven't gotten around to Hitman yet).

Splinter Cell has far more options in gadgets and weapons, but very few in environmental choices. Thief has few gadgets and weapon choices, but many possibilities in environmental strategies. I prefer Thief over Splinter Cell that way because it forces me to be more resourceful and creative in my play.

I openly admit it's my lack of either obscene OR meditative levels of patience that shape my preference. After a handful of reloads in pure stealth, a double-tap was a welcome option. ... Never killed a guard in Thief, though. Just couldn't.

They say waiting sharpens the apetite. Yeah, it's the amount of patience demanded of the player, probably above other demands like cunning and skills. I swear, there were moments in Thief when I had to literally wait in the dark for several minutes to make my move (Cragscleft Prison was superb for this!!). It was brilliant, how the suspense just ate into me. I think Thief was the only game that truly had me on the edge of my seat.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

The latest preview from IGN is tantalizingly revealing. Here are some highlights about gamplay, exploration, performance, and strategy choices:

You could also empty an oil flask at the entrance, then light the oil with a fire arrow as the guards come outside. The guards will slip and fall on the oil, so it's also a good item for a quick getaway. Flash bombs are also pretty effective, blinding and disorienting everyone for a few seconds. Also, you don't have to use a water arrow to take out some lights. With candles, you can simply walk up to them and snuff them out with your fingertips.

...there's the nifty moss arrow. You can fire it at the floor to prepare a quiet landing, or fire it at a guard's head, which will choke him on the moss and make him unable to warn the others.

...there was an unarmed guy hanging around outside. What's cool is that if and when he spots you, he'll immediately go looking for the nearest guard for help. When you're found, you'll also hear "custom barks," meaning NPCs will talk to each other with the dialogue customized to where you are, like in Far Cry. Two hundred thousands words of recorded dialogue means you'll hear a pretty large variety of phrases, and you'll be able to use what they say to find a good hiding place.

Another level of added realism involves being able to frame bystanders. When something is stolen, you're not necessarily the automatic suspect, to be quickly chopped up and disposed of. In certain situations, there will be other people milling around, and if you're quick enough, you can get in and out, hang back and watch the fur fly.

You can also use mobile objects to obscure your location. We went to a big clock tower at one point, and there was a huge pendulum swinging slowly from side to side. Garret could sidle along with it and keep the bottom of the pendulum between him and the guard, with no one being the wiser.

The Ion Storm team recommends at least a GeForce 4 (and not the MX variety), but pointed out that DS is not a DirectX 9 game. It still looked pretty darn spiffy, thanks also to a tweaked version of the Havok physics engine. The controls and performance all felt butter-smooth in this build, with nary a hiccup or graphical error.

....third-person [perspective] is optional. Third-person is handy for spotting valuables and light sources, but I found myself switching back and forth (seamlessly, with the push of a button) equally between the two modes. First-person is more immersive, but third-person was strategically helpful. And remember, kids, you don't have to use third-person if you're a Thief traditionalist.

The theme of overall gameplay flexibility extends to the difficulty levels. You can choose from a few presets, but the neat thing here is customization. Want to make it so that you're not allowed to kill anyone? Click here. Want to go wild with bloodshed? Click there. The difficulty system in Deadly Shadows offers some very subtle and tweakable gradations.

What's this open-ended section like, the part in between the missions, where you're free to roam? Well, here the guards don't automatically try to skewer you, so that's nice. You can wander freely, stealing this and that and running across hidden caches of arrows, bombs, and other supplies. Walk into a tavern and overhear some people talking about a particularly tasty-sounding bauble. Then you go over to where they said it was, steal it, and sell it. There are bunches of scripted conversations to overhear, some of them pretty hilarious. There was this one guy trying to pass himself off as Garrett, boasting drunkenly, and his client wasn't really convinced but was willing to ahead with it anyway. I don't know how that conversation would have ended, because we decided we'd had enough of listening to this imposter and thought he should taste some moss. So he danced around, choked, and grabbed his throat. That'll teach 'em.

[Maquisard]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

You could also empty an oil flask at the entrance, then light the oil with a fire arrow as the guards come outside. The guards will slip and fall on the oil, so it's also a good item for a quick getaway. Flash bombs are also pretty effective, blinding and disorienting everyone for a few seconds. Also, you don't have to use a water arrow to take out some lights. With candles, you can simply walk up to them and snuff them out with your fingertips.

...there's the nifty moss arrow. You can fire it at the floor to prepare a quiet landing, or fire it at a guard's head, which will choke him on the moss and make him unable to warn the others.

I had hoped that the oil flask is the replacement for the moss arrow--I always thought of that concept as unrealistic--the arrow supposedly makes no noise upon landing, even though the wood should bang against the impact surface... I like it how you can jam moss down someone's throat though, that's awesome

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

You can also use mobile objects to obscure your location. We went to a big clock tower at one point, and there was a huge pendulum swinging slowly from side to side. Garret could sidle along with it and keep the bottom of the pendulum between him and the guard, with no one being the wiser.

Does sidle mean hang on the pendulum or run behind it in rhythm?

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

The theme of overall gameplay flexibility extends to the difficulty levels. You can choose from a few presets, but the neat thing here is customization. Want to make it so that you're not allowed to kill anyone? Click here. Want to go wild with bloodshed? Click there. The difficulty system in Deadly Shadows offers some very subtle and tweakable gradations.

Hm, that wouldn't allow for schizophrenic changes of mood...

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

What's this open-ended section like, the part in between the missions, where you're free to roam? Well, here the guards don't automatically try to skewer you, so that's nice. You can wander freely, stealing this and that and running across hidden caches of arrows, bombs, and other supplies. Walk into a tavern and overhear some people talking about a particularly tasty-sounding bauble. Then you go over to where they said it was, steal it, and sell it. There are bunches of scripted conversations to overhear, some of them pretty hilarious. There was this one guy trying to pass himself off as Garrett, boasting drunkenly, and his client wasn't really convinced but was willing to ahead with it anyway. I don't know how that conversation would have ended, because we decided we'd had enough of listening to this imposter and thought he should taste some moss. So he danced around, choked, and grabbed his throat. That'll teach 'em.

So the between-missions preparation of bying equipment is changed to you walking into a store and buying arrows? A GTA style free-roaming city? That's pretty cool!

I like Thief but never finished either game (and don't plan to--a bit too old already...). Care to summarize the story for me?