[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

It seems that you hate me

Not you, Its the raw deal Anora seems to cop that I hate. She gets boxed up into a stereotype and hit with broadsides on the bioware forums (she's not without supporters either thankfully). I didn't think she'd get such a raw deal from AGers.

Most people who write her off seem to make very little effort in seeing things from her perspective or pay no attention at all to their own role in the proceedings.

I'm fine with people deposing Anora for their own ends. Did it myself too. But admit what you're doing and why, don't take the easy route so many seem to and simply paint Anora as a villain to cast your own actions in a more pleasing light.

[AndreaDraco83]

That was my stupid response, since yesterday I was exhausted, but the following one is my real one, and I hope it will satisfy you as far as my motivations are concerned.

The Chant of Light says "Magic exist to serve man, and never to rule over him". I will take this sentence as the basis of my reasoning, changing magic with kingship.

While I can see some political truth in many of Anora's lines, and she's undoubtedly a skilled ruler and a fine connoisseur of diplomacy and intrigue, I distrust politicians who are so eager to keep their seat, be it a throne or a Parliament chair. This mental attitude - this thirst of power, if you want - is in fact often coupled with a disregard of the social and civil issues that are so important to me and to this character of mine, Alqua. When I talked to Anora about the reasons why she should be on the throne, she only mentioned her foregoing familiarity with court's dynamics but never she mentioned her citizens and their welfare (not to mention her less fortunate citizens, like City Elves and it goes without saying that this whole issue is extremely important to my character, who still remembers what was it like to be raised in an Alienage). As such, I have little doubt that she would have been a marvelous queen, but did she really have what it takes to be a good ruler?

J. J. Rousseau wrote that "Each of us places his person and authority under the supreme direction of the general will, and the group receives each individual as an indivisible part of the whole" and called this simple rule the "Social Contract". Even without furthering his thoughts about Geneva and city-states, the concept of the free will of the Sovereign and the idea that the government must interpret this will and turn it into actual governement is pretty interesting. Alistair is a man rising from the common people of Ferelden, and a Grey Warden; he was raised by the Chantry, and yet he was given the opportunity to wander and see the world; as a child, he knew both the royal privileges and the social iniquities of the country. And he has royal blood, he's the last of the Theirin. All these qualities - heritage, knowledge of both aristocracy and common people, militar skills and inspirational prowesse, good understing of many different points of view (nobles, commoners, Chantry, Mages) - make up for a ruler Anora could never dream of be: she is not of the royal blood and her only area of expertise is Treasury and diplomacy -- necessary skills of course, but not the most necessary. Anora could have been Queen of Ferelden, but Alistair can easily be King of the people of Ferelden, and this, in my own personal opinion, is far more important that any other consideration.

PS: On a side note, I look forward, in another playthrough, to roleplay a character loyal to Anora, to the point of even letting Loghain live in spite of his crimes

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Right. Many of the reasons you pointed out above, Andrea, are the same as mine.

*SERIOUS SPOILERS BELOW*





Alistair, despite his lack of experience equal to that of Anora, has what she could never claim - the "street cred" of having a direct hand at helping to unite the citizens of Ferelden against The Blight and saving everyone. And of course, his much deserved popularity with all the various races and social hierarchies - Alienage Elves, Dalish Elves, Humans, Dwarves,
commoners, nobles, etc. - ensures some level of cooperation between peoples. That's at least how I envision it to be based on my playthroughs.

Besides, once news spreads of Loghain having killed the King and nearly starting a civil war, how possible would it be to dissuade many of he citizens from having misgivings about his
daughter assuming the throne instead of Alistair, who is both a new national hero and the blood heir to the throne? And can Anora also claim to be Grey Warden who was directly involved in defeating the Blight? Can she truly identify with ordinary citizens the way Alistair can, thereby having a more sympathetic concern of social and economic inequities within the kingdom?

Also, it's not as if Alistair is on his own as king. He will have Arl Eamon as advisor. And the Arl, of course, also helped in uniting people, particularly nobles, for the cause; he is a just man and wise. There is also Lelianna, who can be a liaison between Ferelden and Orlais, and Wynne and my Mage, who can work with the Circle, the Templars, and the Chantry to improve things. Not everything has to be secretive and scheming. There's also room for transparency, especially as is necessary when different groups are involved.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Can she truly identify with ordinary citizens the way Alistair can, thereby having a more sympathetic concern of social and economic inequities within the kingdom?

Exactly!

[AndreaDraco83]

I finished Dragon Age for the first time!

Here's my epilogue:

Spoiler:

Alistair rules Ferelden with a common touch, beloved by his citizens
Leliana goes back to Orlais to seek out Marjolaine
Morrigan goes far, far away... with Alistair's child
Oghren decides to stay "topside" and settle down with Felsi
Shale goes back to Orzammar to help the dwarves fighting in the Deep Road
Sten returns to Par Vollen
Wynne stays at court as Alistair's advisor

The Circle of Magi was rebuilt and more freedom given to it by Alistair

Alqua and Zevran rebuild the Grey Wardens, together.

I must say that I enjoyed this game immensely. Beyond immensely. The story was spell-binding and the actual plot development breath-taking. The ending, then, was epic and powerful and left me all warm and fuzzy

I would have liked to know more details on the various companions after the finale (especially about Zevran, of course, and his relationship with my character, even if I'm already blissfully happy to have won his heart), but, even as it is, Dragon Age has instantly become one of my all-time favorites, if not my all-time favorite, both because of the enthralling story and the great characters that I've really grown attached to: aside from Zevran, obviously, I particularly liked Alistair, Wynne, Oghren and Dog!

Of course, now I'll be playing again - as a Human Noble Warrior, I think - and it's very likely that, after that, I'll play it again and again, over and over. I have not be so taken by a game since Gabriel Knight and - said by me - this meas really a lot. DA:O is my gift to my boyfriend for Christmas and I know that he will enjoy it as much as I do, and I can't wait to see how similar or different our moral choices will be, during his playthrough - and this is a testament to Dragon Age's richness and depth!

Now, enough talking and back to playing!

[Crunchy in milk]

Alistair knows war and fighting. He may be a popular hero but does that make him a good leader? Right after he takes the throne alone (and you've killed Loghain), he runs off to fight himself. As endearing as that may be does it strike you as smart? Cailin did the same thing and look at the mess that caused.

Do you feel Alistair could order others to go through what he has? To do what he must. I might, if he stayed the Alistair from the Kokari Wilds, but once Duncan is ripped away from under him he changes completely. Reverting to lost, childhood Alistair.

I have never managed to build him back up to his full Ostagar glory. At best he becomes happy, friendly Alistair who has given up any hope of ever being serious for more than 5 seconds because he has you for that. What happens in the times when he must rule, and he doesn't have you, or Eamon to prop him up?

I don't deny he's charismatic or a good figurehead. I put him to use for that reason so I could rule. I always feel Eamon is doing the same. Anora certainly does if you marry him off to her (the golden age epilogue), Alistair plays the public face, while Anora gets on with the business of ruling.

Besides, once news spreads of Loghain having killed the King and nearly starting a civil war, how possible would it be to dissuade many of he citizens from having misgivings about his daughter assuming the throne instead of Alistair

They where outraged when Loghain became regent, even when no one believed he abandoned the king at Ostagar. They love Anora. There was no nearly about the civil war. Members of the Bannorn rebelled rather than let Loghain replace his daughter as ruler. Even with the blight on their doorstep. They didn't swell to support Loghain in this time of crisis as he and Howe hoped.

...And can Anora also claim to be Grey Warden who was directly involved in defeating the Blight? Can she truly identify with ordinary citizens the way Alistair can, thereby having a more sympathetic concern of social and economic inequities within the kingdom?

Its not a popular election, you're making someone an absolute ruler. As I said, I used him for those very charming characteristics to rule from behind the scenes. Being common, popular, the best friend of King Maric and the General of the armies responsible for defeating occupying Orlais didn't do Loghain many favours. Even when people didn't yet think the worst of him, he couldn't convince them he would make a better leader than his daughter. There was civil war.

Also, it's not as if Alistair is on his own as king. He will have Arl Eamon as advisor. And the Arl, of course, also helped in uniting people, particularly nobles, for the cause; he is a just man and wise

I've made no secret of my dislike of the Arl throughout this thread. He is just as guilty as Loghain, Howe and you (me too) if you exploit the blight to force a new person onto the throne. Even if he was such a just and wise man, is he the one ruling or is Alistair? And what will become of Alistair when the Arl is gone. It didn't go so well for him when he lost Duncan for support.

Alistair is a great guy and certainly one to have in your corner but I will never picture him as a strong leader. Pointing to all the great advisers he could have to make decisions for him isn't a compelling argument in favour of him sitting on the throne and looking pretty.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Alistair is a great guy and certainly one to have in your corner but I will never picture him as a strong leader. Pointing to all the great advisers he could have to make decisions for him isn't a compelling argument in favour of him sitting on the throne and looking pretty.

I don't think it matters that much how imperfect a ruler could be. He or she still needs advisors and aides, though he/she has the final say. I strongly believe Alistair will grow into his role as king with a strong emphasis on being the people's ruler, a kind of servant for them. That may spark resentment among the nobles with their selfish agendas, but I clearly don't give a shit (or at least my characters don't). He is to me the lesser of two potential evils, and such because I have known him intimately during our adventures as a man with a good heart and a humble enthusiasm to do what's right.

Anora may be a stronger ruler, but stronger for whom? All the nobles? A military mind that ignores the morale of her citizens and the social injustices unto the Elves and common folk? What exactly were her accomplishments at Cailen's side when he ruled? Did she do anything for the Alienage? Did she try diplomacy on the citizens of Orzammar? Did she support a more respectful relationship with Orlais?

As Alistair would be a risky bet for the throne, who is to say that Anora is not herself a risk? Neither of them come with guarantees. No ruler does.

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

(Edited by CIM for space) [Alistair] is to me the lesser of two potential evils, and such because I have known him intimately during our adventures as a man with a good heart and a humble enthusiasm to do what's right...

Anora may be a stronger ruler, but [...] What exactly were her accomplishments at Cailen's side when he ruled? Did she do anything for the Alienage? Did she try diplomacy on the citizens of Orzammar? Did she support a more respectful relationship with Orlais?

Reasons for her popularity are rarely spelt out (the story is about the blight after all, not who rules Fereldan). Her popularity is alluded to in comments from the gossips in town streets and other overheard conversations, tavern rumours and from speaking to Eamon. Its not just the nobles who liked her. That smacks of a competent ruler.

She too at first eases restrictions on the Alienage post game, you can see many of the epilogue results here. <-VERY spoiler link. Most of the changes are all down to how you treated the treaty members, AND if you use their troops in the final battle.

I just don't understand why you saw Anora as an evil at all? She can be a snarky bitch, thats for sure, but it was she that reached out to Orlais and others for aid and talked Calin into it (persuade the guards outside the King's and Loghain's tents in Ostagar the first time). This is what tipped Loghain into madness. She (foolishly) admits it to her father after his return from Ostagar and requests he accept their aid too (cinematic).

She's infatuated with her shit of a father but I never got the impression she was in on his schemes. Just too forgiving of him. I get why some people pick up on these character flaws and dislike her for it, but not why she suddenly makes for a bad ruler and should be dethroned.

Its a fun gameplay element but I've never seen a plot reason for it, but there's nothing stopping you coming up with a reason of your own for doing it. It is a roleplay game and you are the hero.

Alistair has a heart of gold but he's still too much of a soft touch to be king. See the epilogues. Often someone else is the real power behind the throne, always holding his hand, how do you control who he turns to? You've made his word law and everyone is trying to get a word in his ear. The real test will come when he has to defend his throne and kingdom from rival kingdoms and their methods.

[AndreaDraco83]

Maybe having a heart of gold is an underrated quality for a monarch, but I like to think that a great king should be just and righteous first and foremost. Now, I may be biased since I dislike Anora (why? Maybe for her father; maybe for her snappy attitude; maybe because she is a power-hungry woman. Maybe for all these reasons), but look at these finales, taken straight out of the link you posted:

About the Elven Alienage:

Spoiler:

Alistair might grant the City Elves a place in the council.
Anora might ease the restrictions placed upon the City Elves for a time, but a food riot not long after forces her to come down hard on the people of the Alienage. This causes more distrust to brew between the people in the Alienage and their human counterparts.

It is evident from this ending that Alistair is the kind of king - loyal to his people, respectful of them, attent to their needs - that Anora is not. Mind you, I'm not saying that she's a terrible ruler and indeed King Alistair is often reluctant to live at court (if he has not been hardened, I understand), but at least he has the best interest of all his people - elves and humans and dwarves alike - at heart.

On a totally different note, I discovered yesterday that Arl Howe was voiced by Tim Curry! And I hadn't even recognized him! So, while I played the Human Noble Origin, I payed attention and when Howe laughs... it's Gabriel!

[Crunchy in milk]

How would Alistair handle a food shortage or similar crisis in the city?

Anora tries to improve life for the Alienage elves, but when a crisis comes, she favours her human subjects.

Would Eamon advise Alistair to behave any differently? Have you seen the outcomes for non human/Alistair romance? Frilly and light Alistair dumps you because his human subjects wont accept your relationship.

It is evident from this ending that Alistair is the kind of king - loyal to his people, respectful of them, attent to their needs - that Anora is not.

It shows that Anora favours the majority of her subjects over minorities in a crisis. That you expect Alistair will act differently when the shit hits the fan for him (especially under the guidance of Arl Eamon) is wishful thinking. There are realities to being the king that make short work of lofty ideals and personal desires.

[AndreaDraco83]

This is surely a way to see it, but the very fact that Alistair granted the elves a presence in the Royal Council, while Anora did not, speaks volumes about his open-mindness and sense of justice and equality.

[hild]

I agree I thought Anora would make a much better ruler. I do wonder one thing about the ending.

Spoiler:

Why is it everyone seems to feel betrayed by Morrigan, she always seemed like she was out for herself throughout the whole game, it would make sense that she would in the end, be mainly concerned with furthering her own goals.

Plus I always liked lielianna better loved the french accent.

[D.C.]

I'm sure all you BioWare fanboys have heard already, but there's a proper old school expansion pack coming our way! BioWare's launched an official site and there's a spiffy new interview at IGN. Both links contain spoilers for the expansion as well as the original game, so read at your own risk. I cannot freakin' wait!

Spoiler:

I really want to play this with my original character, which might be slightly difficult considering he's kind of dead.

[Crunchy in milk]

There's a bit of backlash about the expected rrp of $40.

[D.C.]

Really? According to that interview it's supposed to rival a new game in terms of length. (Although that's not saying much considering most new games aren't all that long any more...) Maybe this is my Dragon Age withdrawal speaking, but if it's as long as they say...

[hild]

I thought the expansion was only supposed to be 15 hours in length.

[Vahkris]

Originally Posted by hild

I thought the expansion was only supposed to be 15 hours in length.

Sadly 15 hours of gameplay is almost acceptably long enough for a new single-player game nowadays. Some still complain though.

[youfightlikeadairyfarmer]

Originally Posted by hild

I thought the expansion was only supposed to be 15 hours in length.

That's never been stated by Bioware or anything officially that I've been able to find.

[hild]

I dont remember where I read it at now so I may be wrong it may be longer but I keep wondering why has EA started to charge 40 dollars for their expansion packs I noticed with sims 3 world adventures it was also 40 dollars for the expansion pack.

[D.C.]

I think the first early reports of an expansion pack quoted 15 hours of content, but that didn't come from any official source. Doesn't mean it's not true, though. The interview I linked above gave the impression it'd be longer, so here's hoping!