[Litrick]

finally some proof blu ray is relevant to games

in this developer walkthrough of Lair, the developer talks about how they stream all the textures straight from the blu ray, which allows for the huge game world.. and talks about other techniques they have used with the cell processor, which are not possible on the other consoles.

the game looks incredible...
check out the vids (part one is where he talks about blu ray)
http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=2657

with this, and heavenly sword just around the corner, it seems maybe sony wasnt lying about its power...the ps3 may finally be worthy of a purchase

[Ninja Dodo]

I think they need to work on the feeling of weight of the dragons and the camera... as well as the explosion ripples on the water. Too fast, loses all sense of scale.

Still, looks promising.

[Dasilva]

Well I must say the cutscenes in LAIR look amazing, but the gameplay?! The game looks good when they control what you see in the engine, but that whole battlefield and swooshing in and stuff looks not as nice as I hoped. And I could see this gameplay getting stale fast.

[CrimsonBlue]

Looks to be as exciting as Ninety Nine Nights. Which means not at all.

[insane_cobra]

And his words are the proof... how?

Visually, Lair really is a mixed bag. Like Dasilva said, cutscenes look amazing and dragons are nice due to some fine animation and texture work. Water surfaces are just as sweet, but everything else looks quite mediocre. Fire and explosions look pretty bad, terrain geometry and texturing are beyond simple (a lot of noticeable texture tiling in the environment), and structures and ground forces leave a lot to be desired. Sure, the maps are huge, but considering their lack of detail it's hardly an impressive feat.

[samIamsad]

In some not so distant time in the future, people will come to realize how disgustingly disgusting every game they play reminds them of their own disgusting life. How they look, how they feel, how they behave and (maybe) how they fucking smell. That's when Atari2600 will be king of the ring again. Heed my words, bruth0rs!

This looks like another "Lord Of The Rings" gone game crossed with "Drakan", "Starwars-Rodgue Squadron" and whatever. Damn it, Factor5 used to be cool.... I mean REALLY cool. THIS cool, actually (isn't the Amiga's sound chip just incredible? Also: Chris Huelsbeck is the man!). That was like 15 or 16 years ago. At least they're still an independent company. Sort of, if you know what I mean.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

And his words are the proof... how?

Visually, Lair really is a mixed bag. Like Dasilva said, cutscenes look amazing and dragons are nice due to some fine animation and texture work. Water surfaces are just as sweet, but everything else looks quite mediocre. Fire and explosions look pretty bad, terrain geometry and texturing are beyond simple (a lot of noticeable texture tiling in the environment), and structures and ground forces leave a lot to be desired. Sure, the maps are huge, but considering their lack of detail it's hardly an impressive feat.

proof in the sense that the textures are being streamed directly into the game from the blu ray. you can imagine the possibilities this opens up, given the huge amount of storage space blu ray has, it gives the oppurtunity for vast variation, and huge gameworlds.

Some of the graphical effects could use a little work in lair i agree, but the interesting thing about those videos is hearing what the develpers had to say about the ps3. with comments like "it is hard to program for, but not as hard as the ps2, and once you learn how to use the SPUs the possibilities are limitless"... does sound encouraging.

I guess what i am saying is its good to see that the cell and blu ray are actually capable of some pretty cool stuff, and in time we will probably see some amazing stuff from the ps3. Lair and Heavenly sword look like a good start, but it is still early days yet

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Litrick

proof in the sense that the textures are being streamed directly into the game from the blu ray. you can imagine the possibilities this opens up, given the huge amount of storage space blu ray has, it gives the oppurtunity for vast variation, and huge gameworlds.

That doesn't explain who's going to make all those textures as that's by far the most expensive and time consuming part of the whole deal. It also doesn't say you couldn't achieve similar results in a completely different way. And Lair certainly doesn't stand as a proof of concept, not with its unremarkable, repeating terrain textures.

Some of the graphical effects could use a little work in lair i agree, but the interesting thing about those videos is hearing what the develpers had to say about the ps3. with comments like "it is hard to program for, but not as hard as the ps2, and once you learn how to use the SPUs the possibilities are limitless"... does sound encouraging.

We already know the PS3 is not as hard to develop for as the PS2 used to be, just as we know it's still a lot less developer friendly than both the Xbox 360 and the Wii. The part about Cell's limitless possibilities is, of course, a hyperbole. It's only another way of saying "we still don't know how to tackle it to achieve optimal results".

I guess what i am saying is its good to see that the cell and blu ray are actually capable of some pretty cool stuff, and in time we will probably see some amazing stuff from the ps3. Lair and Heavenly sword look like a good start, but it is still early days yet

Of course we will, just as we'll see some amazing stuff from competing platforms as well.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

That doesn't explain who's going to make all those textures as that's by far the most expensive and time consuming part of the whole deal. It also doesn't say you couldn't achieve similar results in a completely different way. And Lair certainly doesn't stand as a proof of concept, not with its unremarkable, repeating terrain textures.

We already know the PS3 is not as hard to develop for as the PS2 used to be, just as we know it's still a lot less developer friendly than both the Xbox 360 and the Wii. The part about Cell's limitless possibilities is, of course, a hyperbole. It's only another way of saying "we still don't know how to tackle it to achieve optimal results".

Of course we will, just as we'll see some amazing stuff from competing platforms as well.

There are plenty of developers willing to invest the time and effort into acheiving grand graphical results. Even if there wasnt, it doesnt detract from the technology, and at least it gives the option.
from where i was sitting the absolutely HUGE landscape all with detailed textures looked very impressive. I would also say no one has actually seen this game running other than some off screen videos, and short clips, so it is hard to judge. however when a highly respected developer states the benefits of a technology, i think is says something.

The devlopers state they are using all of the SPUs for physics calculations which allows real time water simulation (among other things), then they state once you learn how to use the SPUs, the possibilities are almost limitless. I think thats a very positive statement. Whether or not they have learnt how to use them optimally, again, its great to have that power available.

[Jayel]

I have to speak out my skepticism as well. Streaming textures/levels/geometry has been done to death on older platforms with other forms of storage, be it dvd, cd, or plain cartridge. In fact, a lot of ps3 developers end up duplicating game content all over the disc to compensate for the slower seek times on blu ray, effectively making any advantages of blu ray's extra storage space moot.

disclaimer: I do not speak from personal experience, but rather a personal account of a game developer I talked to.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by Jayel

I have to speak out my skepticism as well. Streaming textures/levels/geometry has been done to death on older platforms with other forms of storage, be it dvd, cd, or plain cartridge. In fact, a lot of ps3 developers end up duplicating game content all over the disc to compensate for the slower seek times on blu ray, effectively making any advantages of blu ray's extra storage space moot.

disclaimer: I do not speak from personal experience, but rather a personal account of a game developer I talked to.

The difference with blu ray is the ability to stream data at 1080p. I think the lair demonstration shows streaming from blu ray to be effective. Insomniac have also stated they will use blu ray streaming for ratchett and clank. I guess time will tell...

[undeaf]

What could blu ray have to do with this? If textures can be streamed of a normal speed blu ray drive, there's no reason they couldn't be streamed of a dvd drive running at umpteen thousand rotations per minute.

[Jayel]

Originally Posted by Litrick

The difference with blu ray is the ability to stream data at 1080p.

I hope you realize that this statement have no meaning. 1080p refers to video resolution, not data transfer rate. Sony could've achieved higher transfer rate by sticking with the old dvd format like its nearest competitor did, but oh well.
again, even ps1 games streamed data in mid-play. There's nothing new or unique about it when ps3 does it.

[insane_cobra]

Like others have pointed out, games have used texture streaming before (Gears of War uses it, for instance; Resistance: Fall of Man with its allegedly huge and varied levels doesn't), so it's not about the technology, it's about making good use of it. With today's tools, developers have enough trouble filling out simple DVDs with first rate content without their budgets skyrocketing. How many will use the Blu-ray to achieve meaningful things that absolutely can't be done with dual layer DVDs? That remains to be seen.

As far as I know, Lair's water simulation is only surface based. It's neat, but not nearly as neat as what middleware tools like HydroEngine are about to bring us.

[Kolzig]

How about the water simulation in CryEngine2? Damn that looks sweet.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by undeaf

What could blu ray have to do with this? If textures can be streamed of a normal speed blu ray drive, there's no reason they couldn't be streamed of a dvd drive running at umpteen thousand rotations per minute.

Yep, and they can, but the point is with the space blu ray allows, combined with ble ray,the capability for large and varied game worlds greatly increases.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by Jayel

I hope you realize that this statement have no meaning. 1080p refers to video resolution, not data transfer rate. Sony could've achieved higher transfer rate by sticking with the old dvd format like its nearest competitor did, but oh well.
again, even ps1 games streamed data in mid-play. There's nothing new or unique about it when ps3 does it.

where have i said that it is unique to ps3? the poiint is you can have 40 1 gig textrued levels on a ps3... or two 20 gig levels... or whatever, but it is the space the blu ray provides along with the streaming capability which is the benefit.
the demo level of lair was 4 gig alone... the developers clearly state they cannot make games of this scale with less space.

as for 1080p streaming, i am aware this is the resolution. this is used in conjuction with a number of ways for game effects... 2d backgrounds, videos etc, whetther is is streamed directly into the game is irrelivant i guess. The reason the ps3 can do it as apposed to a 360 is again... space. video at that res is insanely large in file size.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Litrick

the developers clearly state they cannot make games of this scale with less space.

But there's no way to prove that! In most such cases there are alternative ways of achieving similar results. Remember how Insomniac used to claim practically the same thing? And then Resistance came out and it turned out it wasn't that special in terms of visuals, level sizes or variety after all. Sounds only like more pro-PS3 propaganda to me.

[Dasilva]

"of This scale?"

Tell me, what scale is LAIR? I mean, it looked alrite but I've seen grander games.

[Crunchy in milk]

Even if a developer went to the trouble to learn how to get the utmost from the ps3's somewhat unique architecture, doesn't that mean whatever they come out with is limited to that platform alone. You'd want Sony to cough up some big bucks for an exclusive what with you locking yourself out of every other platform out there.

I've always thought the idea of exclusive titles as a result of wildly varying architecture a bit scary as a consumer. Developers willing to go to that level of time/devotion/expense can't be numerous. The device becomes defined by those titles that do make use of its features making the developer of the console undoubtedly 'handsy' in those game titles development and content. Variety (and the truly unique) could well suffer.