[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by Terramax

I think anyone who really enjoys it doesn't know how a well balanced story is told.

That's the most disgusting attitude I've seen on this forum yet.

[Spiwak]

Seriously. Maybe not so much of the ad hominem attacks, please.

[Davies]

Originally Posted by aries323

@ terramax

In your comment (to me) you mentioned the swearing in The Longest Journey. There must be something wrong with my ears cause I certainly can't hear any swearing in The Longest Journey (not unless you count the L word as swearing, and the talk about *IT* swearing).

What's the L-word? I can't think of anything beginning with L that could possibly count as swearing. Lascivious? Lurid? Latex?

Somebody tell me, please. It's preying on my mind.

Originally Posted by terramax

I think the police officer swears when he's in the toilet and his eye falls out.

I think anybody whose eye falls out is entitled to swear.

[aries323]

Originally Posted by Davies

What's the L-word? I can't think of anything beginning with L that could possibly count as swearing. Lascivious? Lurid? Latex?

Somebody tell me, please. It's preying on my mind.

I think anybody whose eye falls out is entitled to swear.

--- erm ---

The L Word is also the name of a TV-series ---- starring and all women's cast ---- almost. (US viewers do get this one, I know you do ).

I used the L word as not to spoil the opening too much...

Let's just say there certain talks about alternative methods of living together, if you're a women, and that they some of them ---

nay, you have too see for yourself

[Spiwak]

Well if I recal there's a shit-ton of swearing in TLJ. The one guy in the floating wheelchair alone must have had a nice handful of fuckbombs.

[Idta]

Originally Posted by Davies

I think anybody whose eye falls out is entitled to swear.

LAUGHING MY FUCKING ASS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was great...

TLJ was an amazing amazing game...The swearing was there at CERTEIN points, because well frankly when it came out in 2000 shit and fuck were (and still are) very very common words! And there are tons of people who swear a lot, and looking at the flying legless person's personality, it would be totally fit that he would swear.

I found the game very humourous at times, especially when Crow was speaking lol

And unlike every other female protogonist in games, April's name will never be forgotton!!!

And you might wanna try and play Dreamfall, if you hated TLJ's graphics/storyline...

[Terramax]

Originally Posted by Idta

LAUGHING MY FUCKING ASS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was great...

TLJ was an amazing amazing game...The swearing was there at CERTEIN points, because well frankly when it came out in 2000 shit and fuck were (and still are) very very common words! And there are tons of people who swear a lot

Yeah, but last time I checked, TLJ wasn't looking to be a Ken Loach social realist story. Also, I guess I might be in the minority, but despite there being people out there who swear a lot (usually the poor and working class institutions) I most certainly don't like hearing people swear a lot and I most certainly don't want to have to hear it constantly in a game that I've shelled out money for.

EDIT: Unless it's used in the right context or specific purpose that isn't immature humour.

[Idta]

Funny enough not only "poor and working class" swear a lot... I dunno what kinda world you live in but you need to get with the times, they are only words. I am sure you are a misrable man/woman if you cant watch a pg-13 movie and up, or play any teen games...Jeez.... Realx a little, you might be able to enjoy the entertain world more

But of course to each their own like someone said before me..

[Panthera]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Yeah, but last time I checked, TLJ wasn't looking to be a Ken Loach social realist story. Also, I guess I might be in the minority, but despite there being people out there who swear a lot (usually the poor and working class institutions) I most certainly don't like hearing people swear a lot and I most certainly don't want to have to hear it constantly in a game that I've shelled out money for.

EDIT: Unless it's used in the right context or specific purpose that isn't immature humour.

I'm so sick of saying this, but here I go again..
Norway has a whole other culture when it comes to swearing. Almost everyone uses it to express their feeling, and even tv-commentators say it on tv when they're exited about something, etc.
In North of Norway (where I grew up) you can almost literary say that ppl. swear in every sentence.
The swearing in the longest journey isn't anywhere near what can actually be called common in North of Norway. Other cultures have other costumes, on one of ours is swearing and not being particularly polite (in many cases this is very unfortunate)
I'm not especially fond of this culture, and I don't swear, but saying that TLJ isn't realistic because of excessive swearing is just ignorance for other cultures. Ragnar Tørnquist is Norwegian, and thus writes in a way I don't think any norwegian will find even remotely offensive, but might be strange for others..


Edit: "Shit" isn't considered anything near swearing here..

[JemyM]

It's the same in Sweden. TLJ felt very realistic to me.

And yes, the game is a classic.

[Catbert]

Originally Posted by Panthera

I'm so sick of saying this, but here I go again..
Norway has a whole other culture when it comes to swearing. Almost everyone uses it to express their feeling, and even tv-commentators say it on tv when they're exited about something, etc.
In North of Norway (where I grew up) you can almost literary say that ppl. swear in every sentence.
The swearing in the longest journey isn't anywhere near what can actually be called common in North of Norway. Other cultures have other costumes, on one of ours is swearing and not being particularly polite (in many cases this is very unfortunate)
I'm not especially fond of this culture, and I don't swear, but saying that TLJ isn't realistic because of excessive swearing is just ignorance for other cultures. Ragnar Tørnquist is Norwegian, and thus writes in a way I don't think any norwegian will find even remotely offensive, but might be strange for others..


Edit: "Shit" isn't considered anything near swearing here..

I love you people and your countries and I wish to procreate with every single one of you. I curse all the time too! Help me, long lost brothers! I'm tall too! Gotta do something about the hair, though, too dark.

[Terramax]

Originally Posted by Panthera

I'm so sick of saying this, but here I go again..
Norway has a whole other culture when it comes to swearing.

Incase you haven't noticed, the English version of the game does not use Norwegian voice. It uses English. So when the game transferred tongue, it should've transferred to a decent of standard of English language. It would've helped both the story and the way some of us perceive it.

I've ordered Planescape: Torment. Here's hoping. Hell, I'm even thinking of pulling off Max Payne off the shelf and giving that another whirl.

And I'm surprised no-one mentioned Deus Ex? Isn't that supposed to have a good story? Or is it more the gameplay element?

[Melanie68]

Fact 1 - Terramax didn't like TLJ (which is fine with me - vive la difference). I tend to think it's a waste of energy trying to convince someone to like something they didn't.
Fact 2 - Terramax doesn't like a lot of swearing and he has a different threshold than others as to what constitutes a lot. Again, I don't see what the problem with that is. This conversation has turned into a personal thing in analyzing what is an OK level of swearing. It's a personal thing, let it go.

And I highly doubt Norway has a monopoly on swearing. There's plenty of it in the English speaking countries as well.

Perhaps we can get back to talking about stories in games.

[Terramax]

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Idta

Funny enough not only "poor and working class" swear a lot... I dunno what kinda world you live in but you need to get with the times, they are only words. I am sure you are a misrable man/woman if you cant watch a pg-13 movie and up, or play any teen games...Jeez.... Realx a little, you might be able to enjoy the entertain world more

If you must know, the world I live in is England, where children at the age of about 7 or 8 are swearing at a regulare basis. The PG - 12a films are a contribution to this, along with computer games and television shows that use swearing so often, it's destroying it's original taboo of shock value and destroying the way in which we live because most people cannot even get a decent job as it means avoiding swearing altogether for 6 1/2 - 9 hour shifts, which many people cannot do no. The country that created the real English language is now losing it as an integral part of our society in exchange for cheap laughs (for people like you) and becoming more American English.

I don't think that's being miserable. I'm only worrying about the welfare of my country. I'm not old either. I'm only a little older than you (I'd take the educated guess you were about 15).

I for one like South Park and Cursing Robot as much as the next person. You obviously didn't read my edit to the last post otherwise you would've understood my gripe. And that's whether it's used in the right context. there's using swearing for humour or even to emphasis a power of fear or anger, and then there's immaturity. I'm sure the Norwegan version uses swearing a lot more tastefully in their version (as Panthera said, the word 'shit' is not a swear word, hence the characters are then not swearing) but the English translation should've thought a better way of localizing the game for the sake of better taste in a game we should be taken seriously. I for one don't want to save a world where there appears to be nothing but swearing, unhygienic, idiotic characters.

I can watch Studio Ghibli films without the need for constant swearing or violence and they're amongst some of the most powerful films ever made. Terry Prattchett, a successful fantasy satire novalist, almost never seems to use swearing and he comes out with humour and sophistication that puts TLJ to shame.

A good story isn't just a good idea, but the way it's presented. ICO barely has a narrative structure, but what it has is ambiguous and enchanting (and a terrific ending). There's not much of a plot for My Neighbour Totoro, but it understands what means most to its hardcore audience (children) and even ends up entertaining older generations as well.

There are countless books, films and games that have good ideas, but either don't flesh out what's most important, or self endulges so much it becomes tiresome or patronising. This makes them merely good ideas, but wholely not good stories. TLJ is a good idea, but it's not a good story. And that is my arguement here.

This conversation has turned into a personal thing in analyzing what is an OK level of swearing. It's a personal thing, let it go.

Perhaps we can get back to talking about stories in games.

I get what you're trying to say, but I think swearing is an integral part of a story (as much as any other part of dialog in stories). I'm enjoying this conversation to an extent as I'm trying to explain what I believe is a good story hence some might understand the game I'm looking for.

What I'm trying to ask with TLJ is the real logical reason to why people DO enjoy the swearing. Is it funny, does it make the characters more believable?

Perhaps if I mention what was good about TLJ might help matters.>>SPOILERS<<I liked the concept of the two worlds being drifted apart. I also liked some of the locations (such as the cafe and the dream at the start of the game) as the vibrant and almost glowing colours really gave them much deserved atmosphere. What gets me are the unbalanced characters. There are a fair few characters I hate. But not enough I care about. All characters seem distant. There was no connection to characters like that of Final Fantasy. Everyone was alone and it didn't seem that anything that April did really helped matters. And yet April Ryan doesn't seem to have the distant charm of the protagonists in the Silent Hill games that used small implications and bits and pieces of information here and there to tell the narrative rather than long dialog.

[CrimsonBlue]

Yeah, in Norway we swear a lot, and we don't sweep daily speech under the carpet to look like saints when on TV or Radio either. We don't cencor everything. But swearing the way it's used in Norway is usually neither offencive nor particularly shocking. I don't think the norwegian message boards censor much either, if anything.

And Terramax, you can't expect a game to change just because you're fortunate to play it in your own language. Yes, fortunate, 'cause it should be a privelige to be able to play in your own language - not a right.

If anything, the game is more honest than 99% of the games out there.

[Panthera]

I'm not gonna continue this discussion, so I'll try my best not to argue, but I just had to correct a little fact mistake..

@Melanie: I'm fully aware that a lot of ppl. don't like TLJ and they're of course allowed to do that. I'm not trying to force someone to like the game. I also understand and respect that ppl. have a different tolerance level when it comes to swearing. What I reacted to was his statement that the swearing in TLJ wasn't realistic..

(which is kind of a funny thing to say about a sci-fi/fantasy world placed in a not so perfect future, but I'm not gonna go there..)
Bad me!

me

Originally Posted by Terramax

Incase you haven't noticed, the English version of the game does not use Norwegian voice. It uses English. So when the game transferred tongue, it should've transferred to a decent of standard of English language. It would've helped both the story and the way some of us perceive it.

Ragnar wrote the game in english. The english script and voices are the original. I'm not even sure if he was the one that translated it into norwegian.
He has stated several times that he prefers to write in english, because of fluidity and such.
What I meant was that I'm pretty sure (not positive, since I don't know him) he hasn't put in a lot of swearing just because he can. I would think he has used the swearing on purpose to better show the personality of the character he's portraying. Flipper is supposed to be a perverse, creepy guy, we're not supposed to like him, but he still helps us, and I at least was sorry for the way he

Spoiler:

died

and could forgive him. Fiona is supposed to be a free spirit, she's not ashamed of either her sexual orientation or her self, and therefore talks much more freely than most of us do.

For me the swearing defined the characters and made them more believable, and also like someone you can relate to. They're not perfect, but they're interesting. April is my all-time favourite game-character because of the way she acts. Her sarcasm, negativity and the way she acts around others, make her an interesting character, and someone I really relate to..


So, finished now. I'll try my best not to reply more to this topic..

[aries323]

In Denmark, young people use the words 'shit' or 'the f...word' a lot. But they do not use these words in the same context as in England or in USA. They way, young people use these word are to depict or describe if they have been surprised over something, if they are angry at something or someone, or if they really don't care about something or someone. It is just a part of the way how young people talk like they also 'wallah' (which is arabic) sometimes. When asked they knwow, that they really shouldn't use this lanuage, when talking to their parents, or at work, or in school, but just use this language when talking amongst themselves.

As for the swearing in games etc. it has some value to discuss this in this thread since many games use swearing and suggestive themes etc. simply to boost sales or to attract the attention of (mostly male) gamers.

From my point of view, TLJ doesn't do that. What Ragnar has done is using the same methods and skills as an author would when writing a short story or novel. Ragnar has used language as a way to characterize people in TLJ, as well as he is describing by their thoughts, and actions. [I could give my students the demo for TLJ and then ask to make person characterization of April and Fiona --- and they would be able to this, simply because of the
way Fiona speaks, and April acts. I could probably do the same with Syberia 1as well].

In a movie (to make this comparision) or a tv-show, when you want to portray a working class (hero) person, you don't let him or her talk like lawyers or upper class people. You portray these people like they would
act and talk in everyday life, including swearing and all.

To me, this is what Ragnar has done, when writing TLJ. I hardly noticed
Zach's swearing at all, but I did get the impression that we was into April, and April wasn't that into him. (and that she thought that Zach was an
a---hole ---).

As for stories on tv and such, I agree with terramax. However, people talk like this, and tv, movies and such reflects the way people talk. If there are more swearing going on in tv-shows, I would say it is because of all these reality shows in which people get to be themselves and such. If you look at
tv-shows like Poirot, Midsomer Murders, Inspector Lynley, Foyle's War,
Return to Aidensfield, etc. --- there aren't that much swearing going on in these shows. (but that's a different discussion for a different thread).

I understand that Terramax didn't like April, nor TLJ, and that's fine. Not every game in the world is meant to be liked by everyone. However, lI like both TLJ and April Ryan. Her negativity towards the world as well as her actions makes sense, because of her family history or rather because of her history with her familiy.

I agree also with Terramax that a good story isn't just a good idea, it also needs a good presentation. Many stories do not have this. However, TLJ seems to have both. It seems also very nordic in its tone and its presentation.

[JemyM]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Incase you haven't noticed, the English version of the game does not use Norwegian voice. It uses English. So when the game transferred tongue, it should've transferred to a decent of standard of English language. It would've helped both the story and the way some of us perceive it.

You need to get out more. The swearing in TLJ made it feel more natural and is one of the things that made TLJ a special experience like no other.

Originally Posted by Terramax

And I'm surprised no-one mentioned Deus Ex? Isn't that supposed to have a good story? Or is it more the gameplay element?

I did. If Deus Ex was a book it would be a bestseller.

[Idta]

Actually I am 21 years old, and I don't understand what in the world would make you think I am 15. But, it does not bother me. I don't care if you think I am 15 because I say shit and fuck once every so often and because I find TLJ a great game because the swearing made it realistic to me. Also, I can hold a job for well over 9 hours without swearing. Just because I say a swear word here and there does not mean I don't know how to act professionaly in a job setting.
On top of that, I am in College studying Law and I have a pretty good use of the English language.

[JemyM]

Originally Posted by Idta

Actually I am 21 years old, and I don't understand what in the world would make you think I am 15. But, it does not bother me. I don't care if you think I am 15 because I say shit and fuck once every so often and because I find TLJ a great game because the swearing made it realistic to me. Also, I can hold a job for well over 9 hours without swearing. Just because I say a swear word here and there does not mean I don't know how to act professionaly in a job setting.
On top of that, I am in College studying Law and I have a pretty good use of the English language.

29 year here, worked as a translator for 4 years (Swedish/English) and I agree.