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Old 11-29-2006, 03:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Litrick View Post
Graphics are not the only thing brought to the table by the 360 and ps3. High definition gaming should be considered an innovation as it has not been done before this generation.
PCs, for the past 10 years.

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another huge factor is the ability for new physics engine on the multiple CPUs, also much bigger and indepth games with the new storage mediums.
In terms of storage you don't actually gain anything. Yes the new mediums hold far more data, but that's swallowed up by the fact that you need far more detailed and hence large textures to make the game look decent in hi-def. There's no direct correlation between gameworld size and amount of storage - it's the high res textures that take up the majority of the disc.

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The extra CPU power provides a multitude of options for game innovation.
How exactly? You've stated that without giving anything to back it up whatsover. More CPU power means you can make things prettier and throw more polygons around. But there's pretty much nothing you can do on the 360 or PS3 that you couldn't do on the PS1 if you were happy to put up with really low res and ugly graphics.

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How you interface with a game is really less important than anything when you think about it.
If you consider games on a purely abstract level, every console game is simply a matter of pressing certain buttons in a certain order with certain timing. The interface, in many ways, is the game.

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Think of the adventure games you have enjoyed. did they need a motion sensing control? or think of any great game for that matter.
No but a lot of them benefitted from a point and click interface: the jump in quality and playability of adventure games was massive when we went from text parsers to point and click.
Other examples: Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Donkey Konga. They're defined by the control method. It is important. It's not the only thing that counts, but it counts.
Back in the day consoles used to have joysticks with one fire button. Someone invented the joypad with 2 buttons, then 6 buttons. Then someone came up with the concept of an analogue stick mounted on a joypad, then someone came up with two analogue sticks, and a rumber feature. Would any of these console games you love so much be half the game it is if it were limited to a one button joystick? Control matters.

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what is really important is having the ability to create innovative GAMES not how you control them.
This is true. Innovative games it was counts. And a new control method doesn't provide innovative games. But nor does extra CPU power. Innovative games are created by the developers, not the hardware manufacturers. The Wii launch line-up is pretty bland, yes. Zelda is ace but it's still just Zelda. But the potential exists for new modes of play and new gaming experiences. We just need to hope the game developers created them. Additional CPU power and storage really does't open up any brand new avenues for developers to explore. They can continue making games bigger and prettier, but it's a simple evolution, it's not a revolution like the leap from 2D to 3D was. The Wii provides potential for a revolution in control. It's not there yet, it needs that killer app to clearly show what it can do. But there is potential.
And yes Sony or Microsoft could release a motion sensitive controller if it were to take off, but the problem is it's an add-on. Console add-ons never work. Reason is developers don't want to develop exclusively for the add-on as it limits thier potential market. Meanwhile consumers don't want to buy the add-on as there's no exclusive software support. Catch 22.


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Yes its not fun to use a joypad in a mouse oriented game, but the point is you didnt need some new exciting way to interface with those games, they were great because they were great games, and would be just as good no matter how you chose to control them because of the game content.
And they'd be good games regardless of if they were running in hi-def with multiple CPUs or in 16 colours on a 286.

But at the end of the day, why do you care? It's not like all the console manufacturers are deciding to focus on new controllers instead of prettier graphics. If you want prettier pictures and high def and multiple CPUs, you have two (count 'em!) console manufacturers trying to out-do each other. There would be absolutely no point to Nintendo throwing thier oar in and doing the same thing the 360 and PS3 are already doing quite well. So they're doing something different. If you prefer the different thing, buy a Wii. If you want hi-def so much, buy one of the above.

Me? I'm buying a Wii as I want to play Zelda. If a game I really want to play appears on one of the other systems, I'll buy that then. But so far there's nothing on the 360 or PS3 that does.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:06 PM   #62
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Tilt sensing is that much of a gimmick. Sony decided to copy iy in their latest controller.

Half Assed attempt as usual.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:08 PM   #63
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Speaking as someone who has been playing Wii games, the innovation is that this is the first console that encourages (demands?) full body engagement. One doesn't have to mime bowling to bowl on the Wii, but it seems so natural it would be silly not to. Same with golf and tennis and helping Rayman deal with the rabbids. Well, OK, Rayman is sui generis.

Once the engagement kicks in -- and it does, fast -- the graphics question becomes moot. The graphics are good enough and the rest is just fun.

I recently had a lesson in the potential pitfalls of better graphics. I tossed a 512MB video card into my PC in order to play Condemned. Looked great...and that was about it. Just another Monolith FPS. The "innovation" in visuals did not translate into anything other than a distant appreciation of the textures and lighting effects. Nothing else in the story made sense or made for a desire to keep playing.

Wii bowling, on the other hand, is always worth a few minutes. And as additional titles appear (Elebits looks particularly tasty), there will be plenty to keep the Wii busy.

Put another way, if the Wii didn't exist, I would still not have a console. Neither the Xbox 360 nor the PS3 hold any interest for me whatsoever.

Last edited by MrLipid; 11-29-2006 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:14 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Litrick View Post
...
Microsoft's tilt gamepad sucked. It did not lack support because it functioned as regular joystick axes. Logitech discontinued theirs because ... ??? ... because they're jerks. Afterwards both of them decided to only sell crap PC controllers, so their opinions on PC controllers mean nothing.
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:18 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by LeisureSuitedLooney View Post
Okay, we get it. YOU don't like the Wii. Why do Sony and Microsoft fanboys always feel like they have to put down everyone else's console? And why is it that the best argument they can give is "graphics are everything, blah blah blah"?

I don't play graphics. I play games. 'nuff said.


actually i am not a fanyboy of any console, like them all and plan on buying a wii and ps3 when they come out here in NZ. I just thought i would chime in with my opinion that the wii is not as innovative as people perceive it to be cause it is lacking in a lot of areas. That being said i am looking forward to owning one because im sure the games will be a lot of fun, simple, but fun.
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Deano View Post
PCs, for the past 10 years.


In terms of storage you don't actually gain anything. Yes the new mediums hold far more data, but that's swallowed up by the fact that you need far more detailed and hence large textures to make the game look decent in hi-def. There's no direct correlation between gameworld size and amount of storage - it's the high res textures that take up the majority of the disc.


How exactly? You've stated that without giving anything to back it up whatsover. More CPU power means you can make things prettier and throw more polygons around. But there's pretty much nothing you can do on the 360 or PS3 that you couldn't do on the PS1 if you were happy to put up with really low res and ugly graphics.


If you consider games on a purely abstract level, every console game is simply a matter of pressing certain buttons in a certain order with certain timing. The interface, in many ways, is the game.


No but a lot of them benefitted from a point and click interface: the jump in quality and playability of adventure games was massive when we went from text parsers to point and click.
Other examples: Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Donkey Konga. They're defined by the control method. It is important. It's not the only thing that counts, but it counts.
Back in the day consoles used to have joysticks with one fire button. Someone invented the joypad with 2 buttons, then 6 buttons. Then someone came up with the concept of an analogue stick mounted on a joypad, then someone came up with two analogue sticks, and a rumber feature. Would any of these console games you love so much be half the game it is if it were limited to a one button joystick? Control matters.


This is true. Innovative games it was counts. And a new control method doesn't provide innovative games. But nor does extra CPU power. Innovative games are created by the developers, not the hardware manufacturers. The Wii launch line-up is pretty bland, yes. Zelda is ace but it's still just Zelda. But the potential exists for new modes of play and new gaming experiences. We just need to hope the game developers created them. Additional CPU power and storage really does't open up any brand new avenues for developers to explore. They can continue making games bigger and prettier, but it's a simple evolution, it's not a revolution like the leap from 2D to 3D was. The Wii provides potential for a revolution in control. It's not there yet, it needs that killer app to clearly show what it can do. But there is potential.
And yes Sony or Microsoft could release a motion sensitive controller if it were to take off, but the problem is it's an add-on. Console add-ons never work. Reason is developers don't want to develop exclusively for the add-on as it limits thier potential market. Meanwhile consumers don't want to buy the add-on as there's no exclusive software support. Catch 22.



And they'd be good games regardless of if they were running in hi-def with multiple CPUs or in 16 colours on a 286.

But at the end of the day, why do you care? It's not like all the console manufacturers are deciding to focus on new controllers instead of prettier graphics. If you want prettier pictures and high def and multiple CPUs, you have two (count 'em!) console manufacturers trying to out-do each other. There would be absolutely no point to Nintendo throwing thier oar in and doing the same thing the 360 and PS3 are already doing quite well. So they're doing something different. If you prefer the different thing, buy a Wii. If you want hi-def so much, buy one of the above.

Me? I'm buying a Wii as I want to play Zelda. If a game I really want to play appears on one of the other systems, I'll buy that then. But so far there's nothing on the 360 or PS3 that does.

im sorry but you clearly dont understand games programming if you think that more power doesnt allow you to do more with a game. You should read an interview with the developers of MGS4 or assassins creed. Have you heard of the Ageia physics card? this is a peice of hardware specifically designed to add power for generating physics in games, things like this can be avoided by having your core CPUs powerful enough to handle to physics to a very high standard. Another huge factor is artifical intelligence, mutli threading allows this to be handled in much more eiffiencet ways, allowing for games like asassins creed to be created. look at the videos of warhawk for ps3, the system is able to handle having hudreds of enemy ships on screen at once, greatly adding to the overall experience, this type of thing is not possible on slow hardware. A lot of games will not be made on the wii simply because the hardware cant handle it. Could you run gears of war on a original gameboy that came out all those years ago? no.. same goes with the different hardware today, each have different capabiltes, and unfortunatly for the wii, it is incredibly slow compared to its competitors.

What you are going to get with wii is gamecube games, with a different control method. will be fun, but in a couple of years there will be quite a big gap between the depth of the games on the platform and its competitors.
Also, what is to stop MS or Sony from bringing out another controller?

Last edited by Litrick; 11-29-2006 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:39 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by MrLipid View Post
Speaking as someone who has been playing Wii games, the innovation is that this is the first console that encourages (demands?) full body engagement. One doesn't have to mime bowling to bowl on the Wii, but it seems so natural it would be silly not to. Same with golf and tennis and helping Rayman deal with the rabbids. Well, OK, Rayman is sui generis.

Once the engagement kicks in -- and it does, fast -- the graphics question becomes moot. The graphics are good enough and the rest is just fun.

I recently had a lesson in the potential pitfalls of better graphics. I tossed a 512MB video card into my PC in order to play Condemned. Looked great...and that was about it. Just another Monolith FPS. The "innovation" in visuals did not translate into anything other than a distant appreciation of the textures and lighting effects. Nothing else in the story made sense or made for a desire to keep playing.

Wii bowling, on the other hand, is always worth a few minutes. And as additional titles appear (Elebits looks particularly tasty), there will be plenty to keep the Wii busy.

Put another way, if the Wii didn't exist, I would still not have a console. Neither the Xbox 360 nor the PS3 hold any interest for me whatsoever.
Thats really cool, it will be good to see the wii capturing another part of the gaming market.
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:58 PM   #68
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I love my DS games that support stylus use.. When I play with my dogs I don't care if they look a bit pixelated when they run after the frisbee, and I don't care if Ashley does look that great.

The DS was the first ever console I got for myself, because of the interesting games and the steering mechanism. I could have chosen the PSP which have much better graphics, but that doesn't appeal to me. I'm not especially fond of the controller way of steering, and I don't need a little machine to watch movies on.

The Wii is the only other console I'm considering getting, because it gives me the opportunity to move away from the "ordinary" steering system, into something much more dynamic and interesting. I don't care that the graphics might not be the best, I have no intention of buying a hdtv anytime soon and I'm not especially interested in blueray either, and Nintendo has a history of providing much more interesting games (for me) than the other two consoles have.

As far as I know, the whole time xbox and ps2 has been out there's only been one single game I've really wanted to play (Besides that I like to play Tekken with other ppl), and that was Jade empire, because I've played Kotor 1 and 2 on the pc.

Both the DS and the Wii opens for a user base of many more than just regular console gamers, and I (if I get a Wii) will probably also progress to trying games that use the ordinary controller too.. For example, I'd like to try Chiki Robo..
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Old 11-29-2006, 06:44 PM   #69
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Thats really cool, it will be good to see the wii capturing another part of the gaming market.
I'm a sucker for innovation in whatever form. Show me a new way of doing things and I'm eager to put it to the test.

Wii showed me a new way of doing things and passed the test with flying colors.

The idea of sitting on a couch mashing buttons now seems hopelessly antiquated. Why play with your thumbs when you can play with your whole body? Why keep all the game play at a distance on the screen while fiddling joysticks? Why not really get into it?

Can't wait for a haunted house game that turns the Wiimote into a flashlight...
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:47 PM   #70
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im sorry but you clearly dont understand games programming if you think that more power doesnt allow you to do more with a game. You should read an interview with the developers of MGS4 or assassins creed. Have you heard of the Ageia physics card? this is a peice of hardware specifically designed to add power for generating physics in games, things like this can be avoided by having your core CPUs powerful enough to handle to physics to a very high standard. Another huge factor is artifical intelligence, mutli threading allows this to be handled in much more eiffiencet ways, allowing for games like asassins creed to be created. look at the videos of warhawk for ps3, the system is able to handle having hudreds of enemy ships on screen at once, greatly adding to the overall experience, this type of thing is not possible on slow hardware. A lot of games will not be made on the wii simply because the hardware cant handle it. Could you run gears of war on a original gameboy that came out all those years ago? no.. same goes with the different hardware today, each have different capabiltes, and unfortunatly for the wii, it is incredibly slow compared to its competitors.
I have a masters degree in computer science and created a 3D online game for my 4th year group but yeah whatever. Yes, physics engines and co-processors have advanced significantly in recent years and we're getting closer to realistic physics in games, but at the moment they only seem to be used for making people collapse more realistically when shot. Realistic physics is just being used to again, improve a game visually but not in terms of gameplay. Half Life is a good example of an exception to the rule, actually using the physics engine to explore new gaming ideas, but it's an exception. And yes, AI should improve in the next few years, but that's as much down to improvements in AI algorithms and the ideas behind emergent AIs than it is the increased processing power. Also remember you have to decide where to put all this new processing power, if you throw it into AI, the graphics/frame rate will suffer. And since all 360 and PS3 games have to support hi-def, the vast majority of it is going there, as everything has to be rendered in twice as much detail as before. The Wii will likely be able to pull off in standard def almost the equivalent of what the 360 and PS3 can do in HD, just not looking quite as nice.
100s of enemy ships in Warhawk - so what? You could have 100s of enemy ships in a PS1 game if you just made them out 2 triangular polygons each. It'd look poor but play identically. No, Gears of War couldn't be done on the Gameboy as it doesn't have any 3D rendering hardware. The shift to £D graphics 2 generations ago was a big one. It could be done on the PS1 though, again, using much more basic textures and low-poly models.


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Also, what is to stop MS or Sony from bringing out another controller?
I already said, console add-ons do not work: Mega CD, 32X... there's a litany of failures out there. No-one would develop for the new controller as in doing so you limit your potential market to people that buy the add-on. Nintendo will get away with it as it's included in the console package, and hence they know for sure that all the Wii userbase will have one.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:48 AM   #71
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im sorry but you clearly dont understand games programming if you think that more power doesnt allow you to do more with a game.
I'm afraid you're the one entirely missing the mark here. The vast majority of CPU power is spent on rendering, and the small remaining fraction is then distributed between all the other aspects of the game. If they would make a game 10% uglier, enough CPU power would become available to do pretty much anything you would want.

Listen to Deano's words. He's right, you're wrong.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:32 AM   #72
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I have a masters degree in computer science and created a 3D online game for my 4th year group but yeah whatever. Yes, physics engines and co-processors have advanced significantly in recent years and we're getting closer to realistic physics in games, but at the moment they only seem to be used for making people collapse more realistically when shot. Realistic physics is just being used to again, improve a game visually but not in terms of gameplay. Half Life is a good example of an exception to the rule, actually using the physics engine to explore new gaming ideas, but it's an exception. And yes, AI should improve in the next few years, but that's as much down to improvements in AI algorithms and the ideas behind emergent AIs than it is the increased processing power. Also remember you have to decide where to put all this new processing power, if you throw it into AI, the graphics/frame rate will suffer. And since all 360 and PS3 games have to support hi-def, the vast majority of it is going there, as everything has to be rendered in twice as much detail as before. The Wii will likely be able to pull off in standard def almost the equivalent of what the 360 and PS3 can do in HD, just not looking quite as nice.
100s of enemy ships in Warhawk - so what? You could have 100s of enemy ships in a PS1 game if you just made them out 2 triangular polygons each. It'd look poor but play identically. No, Gears of War couldn't be done on the Gameboy as it doesn't have any 3D rendering hardware. The shift to £D graphics 2 generations ago was a big one. It could be done on the PS1 though, again, using much more basic textures and low-poly models.



I already said, console add-ons do not work: Mega CD, 32X... there's a litany of failures out there. No-one would develop for the new controller as in doing so you limit your potential market to people that buy the add-on. Nintendo will get away with it as it's included in the console package, and hence they know for sure that all the Wii userbase will have one.

I find it strange that you claim to be a 3D programmer but seem to think that any CPU is capable of processing anything at a fast enough rate for a game... it just doesnt work like that im afraid. Ask yourself why did the orignal gameboy not have 3d rendering? that can be done any CPU according to you? no - obviously not - CPUs have a limit as to how fast they are, and how many operations they can perform at an acceptable speed, time frame based. Its not that hard to understand why a slow CPU could not compute the information of hundreds of warpships fast enough for a game, and a fast one could. And even if you could somehow coax the ps1's 33mhz cpu to do all the AI processing and vertex processing etc etc required to display and control hundreds of warships as "2 triangle polygons", what kind of experience would that be?

You should read some interviews with REAL game developers, for example this extract of an interview with Tim Sweeney of Epic games (Gears of War) where he explicitly states the CPU is the most important factor to them for crafting the gameplay.

AnandTech: What kind of performance improvement (rough estimate) do you expect from a dual core CPU compared to a single core CPU with the same core? (A few percents, a bit more than 10%, tens of percents?) In other words, will a gamer "feel" the difference between a dual core and single core or between a single and dual CPU system running an Unreal 3 engine based game?

Tim Sweeney: It's too early to talk numbers, but we certainly expect Unreal Engine 3 titles to see significant gains on multi-core platforms.

AnandTech: In the past years, games have typically depended more on GPU power than on CPU power (a mid-range CPU with a high end video card was/is faster than a high end CPU with a mid-range video card even at relatively low resolutions). Is the multithreaded nature of the Unreal 3 engine a sign that CPU performance is playing again a more important role in the gaming experience?

Tim Sweeney: Unreal Engine games have always been more CPU-intensive than the norm, for two reasons. First, we're always trying to push the leading edge with physics and other CPU-based features. Second, the Unreal Engine has a much more extensive gameplay scripting interface aimed at empowering mod authors and improving developer productivity by enabling safer and higher-level gameplay development. So we're not going to have any trouble keeping up with increases in CPU power.

Multi-core will be especially valuable because CPU performance scaling due to frequency improvements has tapered off over the past few years.

Last edited by Litrick; 11-30-2006 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:47 AM   #73
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I'm afraid you're the one entirely missing the mark here. The vast majority of CPU power is spent on rendering, and the small remaining fraction is then distributed between all the other aspects of the game. If they would make a game 10% uglier, enough CPU power would become available to do pretty much anything you would want.

Listen to Deano's words. He's right, you're wrong.
Haha, this is just unbeleivable... OK so lets do some deduction from your logic:
"If they would make a game 10% uglier, enough CPU power would become available to do pretty much anything you would want." - Ok so any CPU can do anything as long as its not "rendering"? Awesome, i must alert IBM and tell them to stop wasting their time making supercomputers for NASA etc, apparently a 286 would be able to power all of their software, they can save millions! As for sony.. they might aswell used the CPU from the PS1! those silly geese! Who needs to render good graphics anyway? gears of war would be just as good with no texture mapping on the textures so you couldnt see any detail, its all about gameplay! graphics add absolutely nothing to a game... creating an immersing realistic world is such a waste of time.
Now im off to find my 286 and install Ghost recon, apparently i dont need a fast CPU or one of those AGEIA physics cards the released as specific hardware purely for handling the physics calculations, as long as i turn the "rendering" down is should have easily enough power
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:10 AM   #74
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Ugh, good lord will a mod please lock this now worthless thread.

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Old 11-30-2006, 11:19 AM   #75
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It's unfortunate that some people don't stop trolling when asked to.

If anyone wishes to start a worthwhile discussion about the Wii, then feel free to do so, just bear in mind that any further trolling will be stamped on with a heavy iron boot.
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:19 AM   #76
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Agreed.

And for the record, no amount of processing power can improve game design.
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