[rlpw]

I'm about to get to my breaking point with Obsidian Entertainment and its "never do right today just put it off till tomorrow" attitude. First they completely botch Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 with it's half hazard-half finished game and now they are to busy running around telling every game conference how great NWN2 Warcry is... We just can't release it cause we're to busy running around telling everyone how great it is and spending large chunks of Atari Money to actually do there job and FINISH IT.

This makes like 7 times they put it off and guess what, I'm frustrated. I just cannot understand when you have had as much time for developement as they have how come they cannot finish a product. And to top it off how can companies like Lucasarts and Atari keep handing projects this big to them.

Well it has been postponed to OCT 31... That means I might get it by Christmas

[Spiwak]

Whoah, man, show some respect for those guys. Those are Black Isle veterans you're trashing there.

What's more, you have to understand that it isn't their fault. KotOR2 was unfinished because LucasArts rushed to get it out there while the first was still relatively new. Now you're makign a big deal about postponing because they actually have some time to finish the game? The trend I've noticed is that games usually tend to be better when the developers have had enough time to finish the games.

You're complaining about over-marketing, which isn't under the developer's control, I wouldn't think. Much less, you want a lot of marketing...so the game does well.

[artwking4]

Also, I'm pretty sure they don't make too many of the programmers and animators go on marketing expeditions, so they're still working on it while someone else is doing the talking.

[Stiltzkin]

I concur with Spiwak. LucasArts was the reason for them releasing KotOR 2 before it was ready, and is mainly to blame for its unfinished state. But yes... contant delays like this are frustrating. Of course, I might prefer a game to take longer, if it's going to make for a better game. (As seen with many Blizzard games.)

[rlpw]

I understand everyone feeling like they should be defended but I'm sorry I cannot let this one go. IF they knew that SWKotOR2 was a bad item and needed fixing why not support the game more. There were a total of about 3 updates the first 6 months then nothing. I have games from other companies that are still being supported after being out for 4 years or longer (Like Diablo 2 and NWN).There are others who are trying to fix SWKotOR2 and are getting no help whatsoever ( http://www.team-gizka.org/index.html).
I also know that you folks are hard line gamers and prob understand better than I do. I also know there are times when you need to hold people's feet to the fire and make them live up to whats expected of them. Team Obsidian really cannot rest there laurels on 1 game then trash everything else like it doesn't matter.
Thats okay though cause I'll wait til it's been out 4 months and if NWN 2 is in the $20 bargain bin by then like SWKotOR 2 was then I was right

[kuddles]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I understand everyone feeling like they should be defended but I'm sorry I cannot let this one go. IF they knew that SWKotOR2 was a bad item and needed fixing why not support the game more. There were a total of about 3 updates the first 6 months then nothing. I have games from other companies that are still being supported after being out for 4 years or longer (Like Diablo 2 and NWN).There are others who are trying to fix SWKotOR2 and are getting no help whatsoever

Most publishers don't support a game after the first few months, mostly because it's not worth it in the current market, with most games selling all they are going to sell within the first two or three weeks. Again, you're blaming Obsidian for something out of their control. Give them a break, with Atari on the brink of bankruptcy it's possible they won't be given any money for NWN2 patches, or even for the actual product itself. And especially since Atari is desperate to make money, it's surprising they were even allowed to have delays. I'm actually sighing a breath of relief every time they delay this game, because it increases the chance of the game being all it can be rather than a rushed Christmas release.

You just pointed out two exceptions. Blizzard is still getting impressive sales from Diablo 2, especially in the Asian market. Bioware is using the profits of their NWN premium modules to fund support of the patches. And you should look at your own examples as evidence that your anger is unrealistic. Both NWN and Diablo 2 had several lengthy delays leading up to their release, and now years later still need patches.

Think of it in your position: your boss tells you to make a product by an unreasonable deadline and then releases it in an unreleased state. Then he says he doesn't care if people are dissapointed because he's making the same amount of money either way. Would you then, out of the kindness of your heart, work hours of unpaid overtime to fix a product to make your boss look better? Or would you just shrug and try and find a better boss for the next project?

[Solid Snake]

Kotor 2 sucks anyway.

[Spiwak]

Somehow I knew you'd turn up.

[rlpw]

I HAVE had bosses try to get me to send on a bad product and refused. ANY bad product to me is a mark against the person who created it more than it is against his bosses. You cannot slap something together and send it out half-assed and then run around telling folks "It's not my fault" when you are STILL the person that created it. Quality should be inherant in any creative developement.

[bysmitty]

I'm sorry rlpw but this is all about money. I don't like it any more than you do but the reality is that gaming is a business just like any other. Anyway, I agree with above in that I find it impressive that they are actually delaying the game when Atari needs those Christmas sales now more than ever. The longer we wait, the better chance we have of getting a quality product in our hands. Just look at your own examples, you applaud the work of much delayed games like Diablo 2 and NWN, but speak out against a rushed to store shelves product like KOTOR2.

...bysmitty

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I HAVE had bosses try to get me to send on a bad product and refused. ANY bad product to me is a mark against the person who created it more than it is against his bosses. You cannot slap something together and send it out half-assed and then run around telling folks "It's not my fault" when you are STILL the person that created it. Quality should be inherant in any creative developement.

So you've never had a boss that said "Give me something to send by the deadline or I'll find someone who will!"?

There is a limit to how much control the developers have once a big company is onboard. Ideally they will have reasonable creative control but if the person paying the bills says they aren't going to provide any more funding beyond a certain date there isn't much they can do. Developers need money to live just like anyone else. Also it's fairly likely that the contract will say that the product belongs to the company so they are the ones who have the right to ship a half-assed product if they want to.

As an aside, while it is true Bioware still provide support for NWN it isn't quite as useful as it could be. As I found this weekend their patch for "Original" (their label) NWN does NOT work for NWN straight off the CD (I have the deluxe edition with the two expansions) I had to take up a chunk more space on my hard drive installing an expansion to get the Update service and patches to work. I can understand not providing further patches but why remove earlier ones?

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Spiwak

Somehow I knew you'd turn up.

I wouldn't like to prove you wrong, so.

[RLacey]

Further to step's point, I believe that Bioware self-funds its patches for NWN, whereas companies like Obsidian don't have that kind of money, and so rely on publishers to hand over the cash that allows them to dedicate time to it. It sucks, but this really is the fault of the publishers rather than the developers.

[stinking_dylan]

rlpw, I undertstand your frustration. But, I'm glad Atari has allowed them extra development time. It does kind of worry me though. Seing the desperate state that Atari is currently in, and knowing their past track record for not caring what state a game is in, there must be something significant wrong for them to delay NWN2...

Is it me, or does it seem that the RPG genre seems to get hit the hardest by over ambitious deadlines from publishers? Obsidian seem to get it bad, but not as bad as poor Troika...

[rlpw]

Alright alright i'll relent for now but if this is another bomb that has no support I'm coming back with about 500 I told you so's.

(and if I'm wrong I'll prob just drop off the planet)

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by stinking_dylan

rlpw, I undertstand your frustration. But, I'm glad Atari has allowed them extra development time. It does kind of worry me though. Seing the desperate state that Atari is currently in, and knowing their past track record for not caring what state a game is in, there must be something significant wrong for them to delay NWN2...

Atari is most likely relying on NWN2 to rake in the cash, and so knows that it needs to deliver. I hope.

Is it me, or does it seem that the RPG genre seems to get hit the hardest by over ambitious deadlines from publishers? Obsidian seem to get it bad, but not as bad as poor Troika...

This is probably due to the complexity or RPGs or something.

[Spiwak]

Originally Posted by stinking_dylan

Is it me, or does it seem that the RPG genre seems to get hit the hardest by over ambitious deadlines from publishers? Obsidian seem to get it bad, but not as bad as poor Troika...

...I don't wanna talk about it

[stinking_dylan]

Heh, I'm playing Fallout 2 now as it happens. I managed to persuade a friend to play VM Bloodlines. He's having the same trouble I had with disk 2. I can't remember what I did to get it to work...

Back on topic. At least it looks like the multiplay features will be included now, and the construction set should be available any time now I believe...?
Is anybody going to pre-order the limited edition? I'd like to get it, but I hate those huge boxes =(

[Karmillo]

Originally Posted by stinking_dylan

Heh, I'm playing Fallout 2 now as it happens. I managed to persuade a friend to play VM Bloodlines. He's having the same trouble I had with disk 2. I can't remember what I did to get it to work...

What problem was that?

[stinking_dylan]

Well, many people (me included) couldn't install. It failed when reading disk 2. I even took it back to get a replacement. Many ended up downloading the game, or making a copy of the second disk. Also, something about disabling DMA worked, can't remember now. I do remember it would only work on my DVD writer, and not my DVD ROM drive.