[MasterLoo]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Don't you just love Oblivion? I'll bet it steal hours and hours away from your life, as it is currently doing so from mine. Sigh, if only we could have some adventure games that looked this good, played this intelligently, and offered exploration this deep.

Yes, I love Oblivion. But I still think Morrowind was a much better game When that is said, I haven't dared to touch Morrowind since I played it for the first time(in 2004), so I might get disappointed if I replay it today. Anyway, I thought Morrowind had much greater differences(variety) from town to town, and area to area. Also, Morrowind is bigger and I really got the feeling of being a stranger in a different world. I love that feeling! The only things I really missed in Morrowind are people talking, the fix that you couldn't drop quest objects in Oblivion, and the easy journal system in Oblivion. Apart from that, I feel they really spent more time on making all parts of Morrowind much more unique and special than they have done on Oblivion.

In Oblivion, it seems like they spent so much time on the dialog system, that they could really have used another year or two developing the areas. But then again, Oblivion had a much more focus on the mainstream audience than Morrowind ever had, so I'm sure they captured many more customers by "fixing" some of the stuff I loved in Morrowind that I missed in Oblivion. Also, Oblivion was post-phoned at least one time, so I really think they had a publisher who started adding pressure on them to finish, and that they had to release the game before they could "perfect it". But then again, some aspects of Morrowind seems pretty "unperfected" as well, such as: Why were all those prisoners in different places, and you could pay to free them. Still, there never were a quest where freeing them really made any sense. I mean, seems to me like they were planning some quest you could take after you had freed all or something like that, but never got the time for do it.

[Christian IV]

Yes and Yes and Yes Intrepid...
I really am looking forward to Mass Effect.

I LOVE Jade Empire and the way the game "feels" as you play it, as well as the wonderful story, it is close to being a perfect evolution of its generation of games i think, IMHO and I find myself looking forward to my tine in that game very much.

And Oblivion, YES, i have been playing it, slowly and carefully for many months now, studying the game play, the story, adding mods, and learning about the major commnity additions including some spectacular landscape mods. As I return to Oblivion after playing other games, I often just stand on one of the hilltops and gaze out over the beautifully rendered countryside and say to myself, Now THIS is how a adventure game can look....and thank the stars that Bethesda kept going with the game series to this point.

I do love Morrowind too see my review and analysis on my bloggy in my sig, and still play and enjoy it, for its own qualities. It is a massive world and has many wonders plus amazing mods and huge world additions being developed by the community, Silgard Tower and Tamriel Reborn are two. It is dated in some ways, and I also wish for more spoken dialog and dream of the day some mod team converts the test dialog to speech completely for my old eyes get tired indeed of reading the endless scripts and many of the NPC responses are the same over and over. We are in a time of great evolution of game capacities and content and I think in our time we will see dynamic and fully realized 3D worlds with amazing potential, and I thank the stars again for the chance to live in this time that the classic values of the classic adventure games are once again having an impact and value in contemporary game designers and that we may indeed have survived the slash and burn years of rushing repeating sequels to market.

And yes, Insane Cobra, I think i see what you mean about the Mines, I will be patient and hopefully Riddick wont get too mad at me (I DONT want him mad at me about ANYTHING) for my fumble fingers at times

[Rayvielle]

I can't stop playing World of Warcraft. I admit ... i'm an addict.

But I wish I could stop playing, because after a while, you really do begin to see the games flaws. However, the interaction is on such an ongoing scale, it's difficult to escape at times.

Right now though, I'm going to force myself into Oblivion. I've dipped my toe in the water, only to take it out again. In, out, in, out. But this time, I really want to take the plunge and absorb myself in it's brilliance. This is truly, a magnificent title, and a true experience for any RPG lover.

I'm playing a lot of games off and on at the moment (Twilight Princess, Final Fantasy 12, Quake IV) ... but I'm hoping just to settle on Oblivion for now and work from there.

[Christian IV]

Great, I think Intrepid and others here may agree with me, but I suggest you take your time and dont hurry through the main quest, visit the many wonderful towns, cities, forests, mountain regions, wander and explore and experience.....and by all means enjoy the Imperial City too! And that way when you do do the main quest you will know the flavor and the history and the peoples of that wonderful land so much more fully. Enjoy. And watch out for suprises in the prison! And much much more beyond!

[JemyM]

Oblivion is "RPG Light", created for the console generation. Game developers do not have high thoughts about console gamers and their intellect and this really shows in Oblivion. The lack of choice in how you pass through the game is stunning. Part of the problem is the crappy dialogue system that limits you from say anything with more depth than "Mudcrab" or "Grey Fox". When you are done with the quests the city will end up identical to every other player. This is not roleplaying. This is for players who arent used to RPG's to begin with.

You never feel progress in Oblivion. In normal roleplaying games you can go back to areas you earlier got beaten up in and now whip the enemies like nothing. You can discover new cities and maybe finally go down in that dark underground temple in which you know there is a powerful weapon you couldnt get before due to the mighty opposition. You get happy when you finally reach that cave where the end of the quest should be.

This doesnt happen in Oblivion. Wherever you go the monsters are so-so in power (unless you built your character wrong, then they are always more powerful than you, alternatively always weaker). The cities are marked on the map right from the start of the game and you get there with a mouseclick. You can find the maps largest cave just to find it filled with rats and when you reach the last chest in the last room you find a weak sword since you are low level. The goals of the quests seem to be simply marked on the map to cause minimal friction and difficulty. You never get happy to solve anything since there was no challenge to begin with. You can walk out in the forest to walk on your own. You will find caves, temples, all sorts of things, but nothing inside will be something you havnt seen before and its a waste of time going there.

Oblivion is aimed at people who do not usually play roleplaying games. People who want a light adventure without challenges.

The roleplaying veterans I have spoken to who have grown up with games like Ultima, Eye of the Beholder, Dungeon Master, Wizardry, Might and Magic, Baldurs Gate, Fallout etc usually feels the same about Oblivion. It's a class of its own which do not contain the stuff that makes a RPG good.
Deep dialogue trees, meaningful object interactions, tactics and strategy, research, exploration, looting, romance, multiple ways to end each quest, making major moral choices, questpaths, forging your characters ethics etc...

Personally I lack interesting NPC's. I do not care if people go to work in the mornings, smile when you speak to them or give you some random comment, it's all generated, there are nobody to care for. In games from Black Isle, Bioware and Obsidian the NPC's was as deep and well written and effect the storyline. I also missed a storyline worth caring for. Oblivion did not have an original story, I can frankly not remember it at all. I finished every quest in the game and there was a tiny few worth the effort. In the grand titles like Knights of the Old Republic I remember many quests, the options I made to finish them, I even remember the ending, the main villian, even the villians henchman.

As a roleplaying veteran for 21 years, Oblivion looked absolutely stunning, and it might pass for a medieval fantasy simulation, but it's a weak RPG that simply fades next to legends like Planescape Torment, Throne of Bhaal, the Gothic series etc.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by JemyM

Oblivion is "RPG Light", created for the console generation. Game developers do not have high thoughts about console gamers and their intellect and this really shows in Oblivion...

As a 21 year roleplaying veteran, Oblivion looked absolutely stunning, and it might pass for a medieval fantasy simulation, but it's a weak RPG that simply fades next to legends like Planescape Torment, Throne of Bhaal, the Gothic series etc.

You know, JemyM, if I may be frank, that's one of the most insensitively snobbish and thoughtlessly dismissive remarks I've heard here in a long time. Who are you to insinuate that I and many others who play Oblivion are not thought of as highly as PC gamers?

You're 21 alright. And I'm 40 years old, have a Fine Arts degree, have lived twice as long as you, experienced as much in my life,, played games on the original Atari 2600 and Intellivision, and many people who CHOOSE to play these kinds of games on console have their reasons. Just because you've played some of the great games in this particular genre shouldn't mean you should belittle intelligent people like me who are also a very powerful force in the market for video games. I for one AM NOT SORRY that I don't meet YOUR standards.

I'm sick of these high nosed PC gaming snobs thinking they're god's gift to the gaming world.

Aren't you guys here sick of it too?

[JemyM]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

You know, JemyM, if I may be frank, that's one of the most insensitively snobbish and thoughtlessly dismissive remarks I've heard here in a long time. Who are you to insinuate that I and many others who play Oblivion are not thought of as highly as PC gamers?

You're 21 alright. And I'm 40 years old, have a Fine Arts degree, have lived twice as long as you, experienced as much in my life,, played games on the original Atari 2600 and Intellivision, and many people who CHOOSE to play these kinds of games on console have their reasons. Just because you've played some of the great games in this particular genre shouldn't mean you should belittle intelligent people like me who are also a very powerful force in the market for video games. I for one AM NOT SORRY that I don't meet YOUR standards.

I'm sick of these high nosed PC gaming snobs thinking they're god's gift to the gaming world.

Aren't you guys here sick of it too?

I am 29, I have played pen and paper and computer RPGs since I was 8, thereby "21". My first computer roleplaying games (I started gaming earlier with space invaders, pacman and kings quest on 8086) was Ultima 1 and Pools of Radiance on c64.

Oblivion is a decent game but it's a terrible RPG.

Like many oldschool roleplayers im tired on the claim that Oblivion is a great "RPG" when it barely contains anything of what made the great RPGs great in the first place. It's more like a first person adventure in a simulated world. Imagine if I would tell you that DOOM was the best adventuregame there was since you can collect keys and use them, and you might imagine whats so annoying about the claim. Especially when the real RPG's of 2006 like NWN2 and Gothic 3 was compared to Oblivion in most reviews when both, despite their flaws, contained all the rpg elements that Oblivion never had. What if every adventuregame released was compared to Half-Life 2?

Why do I even care? I fear that Bethesda will use the same lack of rpg elements for Fallout 3, thereby trashing one of the greatest roleplaying series of all time. In RPG quality Fallout 2 makes Oblivion look like something made by people who never played any rpg's at all. I expect the worst.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Evidently Bethesda wouldn't care about you, either. What they want to do is earn the interest of intelligent gamers who want games like Oblivion and not necessarily burden themselves backtracking the history of RPGs (either because they don't have the time, money, or the rat's ass to care). And if it's at the expense of people like you then that's their prerogative. I for one am extremely happy with their decision, and that the game has received numerous accolades and awards not only from leading games media but also from those working in the games industry - and that Oblivion has sold a great number of copies - must mean Bethesda is doing something right. And evidently those industry people know something you don't. Furthermore Bethesda owe you nothing, no more than Bioware and any other company owe you nothing.

And no, I'm not a Bethesda or Oblivion fanboy, either. Oblivion is actually the first Bethesda game I've played. I would play Morrowind or others by them but to be honest I don't have the time because I prefer to make time for upcoming games like Mass Effect and Bioshock. If it's my loss then whatever. And if Bethesda or Bioware, etc. turned out crappy games after their good ones I'll simply move on instead of trolling my fingers off here like some people. There are other good games on the horizon.

Though you're entitled to your opinion, frankly I don't give an excrement because it's trolling - i.e. lousy criticism based on dogma. I for one am having too much of an incredible time with it to waste time dealing with trolls. If you're gonna go there at least be constructive about it, trolling is beneath us here if you didn't already know.

Reply however you want, you'll be wasting your time because I'm dropping this shit. Go post to a mirror instead.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

I'm sick of these high nosed PC gaming snobs thinking they're god's gift to the gaming world.

Aren't you guys here sick of it too?

I just ignore them, when possible.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I dunno what the hell their problem is, cobsie. They come here or other communities and habitually trash consoles and console games. It's like, what, they're bitter because many of the major devs have moved from PC to console or multiplatform? So that they have less games to play on their PC, thus more time come here and trash us console gamers? Is it OUR fault game platforms are shifting?

I just hate it when they try to make me feel dumb just because I just happen to have missed out on the greatest RPGs or whatever. Yes I missed out, but you know why? Because back then I was fecking living my life away from my PC.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Alright. I'll get back to my very lousy RPG, Oblivion, now. Yes, it's incredibly lousy because the snobs say it is. Ciao.

[Lucien21]

There does seem to be this myth that consoles somehow dumb down games. I remember all the hoo-haa surrounding Deus Ex 2 being a dumbed down console game.

Of course it's completely stupid myth, but nevertheless.

I'm sure the Dumb/Smart ratio is the same on the PC as it is on consoles.

As for Oblivion- I'd say it was more RPG-middling. The zelda games are rpg-lite with nothing in the way of stats etc. Oblivion uses alot of RPG ideas in the open ended structure to the stats pages, character variety, loads of sub quests, guilds to join etc etc etc

I felt it was let down by a couple of things that stopped it being more hardcore. Combat is more FPS with easy access spells and weapons. The leveling system that adjusts the enemies based on your level is probably the worst error in the game.

Of course the game was made to be more playable and they streamline the RPG elements, but hey so what.

Doesn't make it less intellegent or less fun to play. Not everyone wants to throw 20 sided dice to make decisions.

There are just as many RPG lite games on the PC. Diablo anyone.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Lucien21

I felt it was let down by a couple of things that stopped it being more hardcore. Combat is more FPS with easy access spells and weapons. The leveling system that adjusts the enemies based on your level is probably the worst error in the game.

I think it's similar to what's been happening in the adventure space in the recent years. Back in the day nobody would even think of decrying a game as some sort of a lesser RPG just because it featured real-time combat or made things more accessible. Things like that have been seen as advancements, not failures. It's only now, when archaic mechanisms have mostly been taken over by, frankly, better solutions that this yearn for purity is starting to emerge in certain circles.

Something being "hardcore" is not necessarily a good thing. It means being hermetic and accessible to only the select few. Things move on, people either accept that and adapt or get stuck in the past. That's also not necessarily a bad thing, people can choose to do what they want and if they enjoy, say, turn-based combat and stat micromanagement, more power to them. I just believe that when their bitterness (because the masses don't share their tastes anymore) emerges in the form of elitist attacks on people who disagree with them, they should simply be ignored. Because what is there to say? Nobody is right and everyone is right at the same time.

[MasterLoo]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Something being "hardcore" is not necessarily a good thing. It means being hermetic and accessible to only the select few.

True, but I still find it sad that there is a marked dumbening down of the audience in many game genres these days. The reason is of course the attempt to sell to more and more people who just play the games causually. I mean, look at the adventure games for examples. In 1990, The Secreet of Monkey Island presented us with a number of different actions we could perform(Give, Open, Close, Pick up, Look at, Talk to, Use, Push, Pull). In 1993, Sam & Max - Hit the Road, they had removed the long list of verbs at the bottom of the game, and replaced it with a handy action cycling instead, but they also limited the amount of things you could do, which I found refreshing. Then on Broken Sword 1, you suddenly had only two actions... looking at things and using/interacting/doing something with the object action. Then on Sam & Max - Season 1, suddenly you no longer had looking either. You just pressed and object, and the game knew what to do.

Of course, this is a result of the game producers trying to appeal to people who wouldn't usually have picked up and played games, which is good for the broader audience who like casual/light games, but bad for me who feel the world becomes more alive the more options I have and who doesn't mind spending a few extra hours figuring out the story behind the game. The cause of this attempt to reach a wider audience comes from the success of the consoles, because if the consoles never got that popular, and if the game producers hadn't seen that many younger people, and people who would normally never touch a game on PC, were willing to play games on consoles, then this "dumbing down" as I like to call it, of the audience never would have happened. But of course, this development is not bad for the game developers nor the mainstream audience. But I still have a right to express my opinion that I don't like that kind of games, and even though there are some newer adventure games, not to say RPG as well, which balance very nicely between appealing to a broader audience and appealing to their old fanbase, there also are adventure games and RPG which really can be seen as a crime against everything adventure games and RPG games used to be about, because they are so oversimplified that a person who hadn't been around to play adventure games or RPG games for a while would've had a hard time seeing that it's the same gender.

Anyway, to lead this all back to what the the thread is about. I felt Morrowind balanced very nicely on the line between appealing to older RPG gamers, and appealing to those who really don't want to worry about XP's and how to build the perfect character, (especially considering that you need a express course in RPG lingo just to be able to understand what the characters does in most "classic" RPG games). Still, I had a great time playing Oblivion, and even though I was a little upset to see that they hadn't fixed stuff I thought was a big issue in Morrowind it's still a good game(why doesn't Kvatch get rebuild? and why does people never move to other towns, unless it's part of a quest? Why does it seems like the nature is so wild that no normal person could have lived where they live, without needing police escort just to get to to the closest town?) Even though they did a lot of progress in terms of making the world alive in Oblivion, the world still feels dead once one get under the shallow impressions the characters are sending us by moving around, pretending to do stuff. But, when I watched the trialer for Oblivion, I saw many of the things I missed in the retail version. I really think they were planning to make the A.I. even more sofisticated, but that they ran out of time, because there are many things I saw in the trailer for Oblivion which it seems they had to pull out at the last min.

Update: the video I was refering to was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUtvj_pqxvs (oh, yeah, you have to check out the part 2-6 as well to see the entire movie).
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search to see them all

[JemyM]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Evidently Bethesda wouldn't care about you, either. What they want to do is earn the interest of intelligent gamers who want games like Oblivion and not necessarily burden themselves backtracking the history of RPGs (either because they don't have the time, money, or the rat's ass to care). And if it's at the expense of people like you then that's their prerogative. I for one am extremely happy with their decision, and that the game has received numerous accolades and awards not only from leading games media but also from those working in the games industry - and that Oblivion has sold a great number of copies - must mean Bethesda is doing something right. And evidently those industry people know something you don't. Furthermore Bethesda owe you nothing, no more than Bioware and any other company owe you nothing.

Please do not compare Bethesda with Bioware.
I also wouldnt claim a game that marks out the solution to every quest in the game with a red arrow as a game that tries to earn interest from "intelligent gamers".

And ofcourse you feel happy if you actually enjoy Oblivion for what it is. I know I am not the only RPG fan out there who do not see kindly on having Oblivion labeled a "great rpg". The fallout forum have more than plenty who share my opinion, just have a look yourself. Bethesda have so far officially defended themselves more than once in attempt to assure Fallout fans that they wont do just another Oblivion in a post-apocalypse setting.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

And no, I'm not a Bethesda or Oblivion fanboy, either. Oblivion is actually the first Bethesda game I've played. I would play Morrowind or others by them but to be honest I don't have the time because I prefer to make time for upcoming games like Mass Effect and Bioshock. If it's my loss then whatever. And if Bethesda or Bioware, etc. turned out crappy games after their good ones I'll simply move on instead of trolling my fingers off here like some people. There are other good games on the horizon.

Though you're entitled to your opinion, frankly I don't give an excrement because it's trolling - i.e. lousy criticism based on dogma. I for one am having too much of an incredible time with it to waste time dealing with trolls. If you're gonna go there at least be constructive about it, trolling is beneath us here if you didn't already know.

Reply however you want, you'll be wasting your time because I'm dropping this shit. Go post to a mirror instead.

Dont call it trolling, I simply repeated whats been said about Oblivion over and over again. Obliviously you took it very personal, which wasnt my intention.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by JemyM

I also wouldnt claim a game that basicly point out where to go with a red arrow to solve each quest as "intelligent".

I think we recently went a little into that in a Spector related thread. The conclusion was that many a company could be very well underestimating its audience. Design like that can take away all the joys of discovery, of exploration, the feeling of satisfaction and participating one gets from actually uncovering the game's world and secrets on one's own. Not sure if that's the case with "Oblivion", but ye, I've seen those pop-up windows that constantly update your quest status, those made me grin a little.

That said, though, those forums are complete full of sh*t. Sorry. I played and totally digged almost all the games you listed above. Exactly the way they were. But, and this is a very BIG but: I wouldn't have any respect whatsoever for any projects which design documents is written in such a way that it's merely working off a tick-list of rigid features just to make it fit a retarded box (think: "RPG"). I haven't played "Oblivion", since I'm already well fed by its two predecessors (well that and my machine can't run it ) so I can't tell, but I wouldn't care a rat's ass if Oblivion is a fine RPG™ or whatever. The only thing that matters is if the designers made their vision come true. Bethesda's vision for their "Elder Scrolls" series has *always* been RADICALLY different from anything Bioware/Black Isle et all, regardless if all of these games are getting tossed into the same box or not. And most of all: if it just works for me or not. If it's a good game. Just like all the games you listed above were good games™ first and foremost. Period.


edit: MasterLoo beat me to it : "Warcraft 3 TFT" on b.net (and skirmishes against CPU opponents) and, uh... "Blackthorne". A tiny lil' bit.

[MasterLoo]

Anyway. I am currently playing... lol... just trying to get this thread back on track. Anybody want to tell me what they are playing?

[insane_cobra]

I just installed I-Ninja.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

You're 21 alright. And I'm 40 years old, have a Fine Arts degree, have lived twice as long as you, experienced as much in my life,, played games on the original Atari 2600 and Intellivision, and many people who CHOOSE to play these kinds of games on console have their reasons. Just because you've played some of the great games in this particular genre shouldn't mean you should belittle intelligent people like me who are also a very powerful force in the market for video games. I for one AM NOT SORRY that I don't meet YOUR standards.

You know, if I may be frank, that's one of the most insensitively snobbish and thoughtlessly dismissive remarks I've heard here in a long time.

JemyM suggested that developers think of the console gamers as less intelligent, not that they actually are. It may be wrong or ungrounded belief, but how is it belittling you? He even gave specific examples of what he considered to be "dumbing down" the RPG elements for the console audience. Showing that these examples don't necessairly have to equal "dumbing down", or providing examples of PC-exclusives that do the same, or discussing console games that are arguably deep and complex in their own right -- now, those would be three possible ways to refute his original point. Asserting that you are an intelligent and experienced man, doesn't.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

I'm dropping this shit.

Originally Posted by JemyM

Obliviously you took it very personal, which wasnt my intention.

Hrm....why continue the discussion AFGNCCAP?
Let the thread get back on track.

The Moment of Silence
I've finally gotten my messenger back and I'm about to go to JFK.
I really like this game inspite of the darn pixelhunting in order to find the messenger. Some more hotspots would have been nice too.