[Once A Villain]

Is anyone here experienced in using Flash? My friend and I are trying to create an adventure game, and we aren't sure if what we are imagining can be done in Flash. Frankly, the best looking game I've seen in Flash is probably Samorost 2, and we want to go beyond that.

So, my first question is pretty straightforward, and possibly absurd:

Can a game with Syberia 2 quality visuals (crisp, detailed pre-rendered backdrops with animation) be done in Flash? I'm only talking about the backgrounds now, not the characters.

[Karmillo]

Well it depends, i dont think it can be done if you were to try drawing them in flash, but you can draw them in another application and then import them to flash

[Once A Villain]

Oh yes, that's what we had planned already. But I thought I had heard that level of detail couldn't be shown in vector graphics, is that accurate?

[Karmillo]

Well for something like Syberia, I would think that you would need a 3D modeling program or something


I doubt a vector package could pull something like that off


But Flash should have no problems showing anything that is already drawn up. All you would need to do is save it as a flat image and import it into flash, or save it as several flat images for seperate sections of the background if you were going for something like that

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Karmillo

Well for something like Syberia, I would think that you would need a 3D modeling program or something


I doubt a vector package could pull something like that off


But Flash should have no problems showing anything that is already drawn up. All you would need to do is save it as a flat image and import it into flash, or save it as several flat images for seperate sections of the background if you were going for something like that

Yeah, we've got Vue Infinite and Poser 6, among other things, but I'm just having trouble seeing Flash as being able to pull this off without crazy load times or other problems... My friend thinks otherwise. I just can't get past the thought that there MUST be some reason most Flash games look terrible...

[Stoofa]

I don't know what you mean by terrible, I think vector graphics can be great. If you're looking for 3D graphics Flash is not what you're looking for. Flash is 2D, you can't create 3D objects in Flash. You could have something appear 3D, but that would take a huge amount of work and frames. Not worth it.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Stoofa

I don't know what you mean by terrible, I think vector graphics can be great. If you're looking for 3D graphics Flash is not what you're looking for. Flash is 2D, you can't create 3D objects in Flash. You could have something appear 3D, but that would take a huge amount of work and frames. Not worth it.

Well, we were hoping to animate environments and stuff in Vue Infinite and then use shots from that with a little animation in them as a pre-rendered background. Over that we were thinking of using animated 2D characters.

By the way, while I do think most Flash games are plain looking, that doesn't apply to Samorost. The Samorost games look very nice, but as I said...we'd like to go beyond that even.

[jjacob]

Flash is capable of rendering 3D objects, though I don't think it's capable of very complicated ones. It should be possible though. In theory the pre-rendered/made background can definately be imported into Flash, though it'd take quite a bit of bandwidth to have a bunch of pre-rendered high quality scenes in a Flash game (unless you implement gradual loading of scenes). I do think however, that Java would be more capable of pulling this off, especially if you want 3D characters. Have you considered using Java?

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by jjacob

Flash is capable of rendering 3D objects, though I don't think it's capable of very complicated ones. It should be possible though. In theory the pre-rendered/made background can definately be imported into Flash, though it'd take quite a bit of bandwidth to have a bunch of pre-rendered high quality scenes in a Flash game (unless you implement gradual loading of scenes). I do think however, that Java would be more capable of pulling this off, especially if you want 3D characters. Have you considered using Java?

Hmmm, we've considered Java for like maybe a small MMO. But I honestly don't know much about Java, except that Runescape, while 3D, looks terrible...

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Hmmm, we've considered Java for like maybe a small MMO. But I honestly don't know much about Java, except that Runescape, while 3D, looks terrible...

The advantage of Flash is ofcourse that it has the user-friendly front-end for developing purposes, and although Java also has similar programs, it will require atleast some working knowledge of the language. But here's an example of a 3D Java game:


For more screenies: http://tribaltrouble.com/screenshots.php

I don't know much about programming, but I do know Java has advanced a lot over the years, and there's more than enough tutorials available on the web to help you. Plus, I don't think an AG with pre-rendered backgrounds and 3D characters would be that hard to make with Java (as opposed to a fully 3D game). Think hard about this though, it'll influence your game's development every step of the way.

[nikoniko]

Well, barring the technical limitations of Flash itself, it's largely what you make of it. There's really no reason you couldn't do something like Syberia with prerendered backgrounds and animations. Flash could certainly handle it, despite being geared more for making vector animation easy.

One reason you don't see games like that done is the sheer amount of work required to model and render the art assets. The other is the issue of size and bandwidth. One thing that might help is that while a character is on one screen you can be preloading the data for adjoining screens. That way a player doesn't have to wait for the whole game to download, just for the first screen, and then the others will be loaded in while the player is distracted doing things on that screen. This will help to create a smooth and fluid play experience without too much waiting. Of course, you may also want to offer a fully downloadable version for those who want to be able to play offline too.

[nikoniko]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Hmmm, we've considered Java for like maybe a small MMO. But I honestly don't know much about Java, except that Runescape, while 3D, looks terrible...

If you're going to be using prerendered for the game, I'd definitely recommend Flash over Java. Why? Well, three reasons. The first is that Java has huge trust issues with a number of users. I know quite a few people who keep it turned off at all times. Flash, on the other hand, though it's had its share of security issues, is generally considered safe and is trusted by most users.The second is that Flash is even more ubiquitous than Java. While Java has a high penetration at 86% of internet users, Flash's reach is greater than 97%. Then there's Flash's multimedia-oriented development environment, which can tremendously reduce the amount of work you'll need to do importing and manipulating your game assets. For raw code execution performance, Java has Flash beat for sure, but considering the nature of an adventure like Syberia you don't exactly require the kind of performance you'd need for, say, Crysis. Besides, with Flash handling the lower-level graphics and sound for you, that's a lot less code you need to write.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by doroposo

Of course, you may also want to offer a fully downloadable version for those who want to be able to play offline too.

I totally agree, but at the same time, the fear there would be pirates. My friend and I are hoping to use the profits from this game to fund a much larger game project (linked to the first), with a team and such. As it stands now I'm the writer, designer, and director of sorts, both of us are doing backgrounds (he gets the bulk of that job), and he does the programming and music. Anyway, it's going to be a lot of work for one thing, and as I said...all the profits would be going into our next game.

For these reasons, pirates scare the hell out of me... This is basically the future of our company in a way. Like when New Line Cinema was NOTHING, they put almost all their money into The Mask starring Jim Carrey. If it bombed, they would be out of business. But it was a hit, and now look where New Line is. Lord of the Rings anyone? With games in this day and age, pirates are a real threat to creativity. Since you know so many stats on Java and Flash, I might as well give this question a shot: What is the percentage of profits lost to game designers by pirates?

[jjacob]

Starforce?

[jjacob]

By the by, Syberia was developed using Virtools, just in case you wanted to know.

edit: and it seems to allow for developing both web and offline games, it's a powerful piece of software, that.

[nikoniko]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Since you know so many stats on Java and Flash, I might as well give this question a shot: What is the percentage of profits lost to game designers by pirates?

Java and Flash are easy to grab statistics for, as websites can detect whether you have either installed. Grab statistics for hundreds of thousands of users, and you're probably pretty close to a useful number.

As for piracy statistics, that depends on whom you ask, but I'd say somewhere between 0-100%.

Last I heard, there was an estimated 40% worldwide rate of software piracy, including but not limited to games. Some countries have very high rates, such as China, where it's believed that more than 95% of software is pirated. As far as how that translates into money, I believe I saw I figure not too long ago that some $60 billion of software was sold in 2004 (again, not limited to games), with some $30 billion of unpaid software being installed during the same period. How they figure these things, I'm not sure, so do take it with some grains of salt. But even if the numbers for piracy are only half that, it's still a significant chunk of change.

Making your game require an online connection could be one effective way to curb piracy. That model works well enough for many multiplayer games, but I have no idea how it would pan out for something like an adventure game. If I were to go that route, I'd probably allow anyone to register for free to play the first part of the game, then require payment for the rest of the game experience. This seems to have worked pretty well for Samorost 2, though some people complained that the second part of the game was too short. So make sure you balance free and paid portions carefully to ensure your customers will be happy with their experience. Of course, Samorost 2 was also helped by Samorost 1 being out there. Likewise, you might want to put out some sort of taste of what's to come some months before your major release. Something to get your game on people's minds and drum up interest so that when your full product is ready, they're already going to be dying to play it. That also lets you get some feedback as to what people like and dislike about your demo and see if that guides or reshapes your major development. Make people love your game enough that they'll want to pay for it and help ensure you'll make more games.

The only way I know of to completely thwart piracy is to make such a crap game that no one would want to touch it, but I don't advise you to take that path.

[Orange Brat]

Take a look at LassieAS if you're going to develop a Flash based adventure:

http://www.gmacwill.com/lassie/

Nearly Departed is being produced with it.

[Once A Villain]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Some very informative stuff, I've been showing my friend almost everything. Anyway, I must say Orange Brat, LassieAS seems COOL so far, we just might use it.

[Ninth]

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about the piracy issue. Your game, as an amateur adventure game, is mostly aimed at a group of dedicated gamers who won't hesitate to spend a few bucks on an AG, providing of course that it's a quality one.
I would even say that requiring to be online to play would cost you more potential customers than piracy. For example, I know I wouldn't be as eager to pay for such a game than I would for a game that I can have on a CD and play whenever I feel like.

[bigjko]

If you were to just import it as animated raster graphics, it would certainly work. I wouldn't recommend converting it to vector graphics, when it's in Flash, because it would have to look like crap to actually not be sluggish as hell. But yeah, rendering backgrounds in another program and then importing the frames as a background in Flash is absolutely possible.