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Old 02-03-2006, 12:44 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Every single piece of software directly affects and manipulates your CPU and hard drive. Yet you don't worry about that.
Uh, yes I do worry about that. Again, as I said, I have a general idea of in what ways things like IRC clients, media players, etc. should use the CPU and hard drive. Again, if I don't, I have people I can ask.

I know that, for instance, if I'm having a problem with my video card, my IRC client probably didn't cause it. But, hmm, my update to the latest version of DirectX might have. Time to see if anyone else has had problems. Or maybe I could look over the publically available information and documentation on the latest version of DirectX beforehand and see if I should install it or not, if I was concerned enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
That's why you're being irrational. There are viruses out there that can damage hard drive boot sectors, so it wouldn't be much of a problem to add code like that to any software.
Yes, but, you see, there's this thing called anti-virus software that most smart people have installed... (and I like to think of myself as being at least normally functional in the intelligence department)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
You don't know what evil lurks under the hood of Winrar. You trust it because, after all, thousands of users have used it and nobody has had any serious problems with it... yet.
Yes. And obviously you can get burned eventually... witness the whole WMF debacle, for instance. Nothing is 100% perfect and foolproof and risk-free. But, yeah, the fact that thousands of users have used it and there's been no major reports of serious problems is in its favor.

But wait, what's this StarForce thing? Look, there's been quite a bit of media attention with many people saying they're having problems! Kind of not a good analogy, is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
It's the same with the latest versions of Starforce. There have been no reported drive problems with it yet.
Not *yet*. But there have been many reports of people getting burned by previous versions. I'm still going to be wary for a while.

Furthermore, that doesn't help with the games that got shipped out with the previous damaging versions. Has there been a recall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
Fine, I'll rephrase. No commercial company would. I assumed that was obvious.
Er... up until recently, you had to shell out $40 to get an ad-free version of Opera. And Opera still makes money in other browser-related ways. They are definitely a for-profit company, with employees on the payroll. In what way are they not a "commercial company"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
That's why there are defamation/libel laws. I'm not a legal expert, so I won't spell it out in detail, but again, I assumed it was apparent to people that there's a difference between saying "go boycott this malicious software" and "people have complained of problems with product X." Maybe not.
Sure, there's a difference. But if you think a bit of software is dangerous, you're within your rights to tell people to not use it/boycott it. For instance, what about when US-CERT sent out recommendations that people not use Internet Explorer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
I already said that. Want to make any other self-evident points? It's StarForce's legal right to sue them, too.
Yep, that is. I have to admit I almost hope they do, since then maybe we can get to the truth of who is right and wrong and settle the matter. There certainly are far "easier" ways to do so, but if StarForce wants to play it that way, well... so be it.

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Old 02-03-2006, 12:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
Yes, but, you see, there's this thing called anti-virus software that most smart people have installed... (and I like to think of myself as being at least normally functional in the intelligence department)
Hate to break it for you, but once you actually RUN a local .exe, no anti-virus software will ever be able to save you from whatever that program is going to do. Anti virus software is mainly there to prevent you from clicking on it. Winrar could ruin your hard drive every time you unpack something.

Quote:
Yes. And obviously you can get burned eventually... witness the whole WMF debacle, for instance. Nothing is 100% perfect and foolproof and risk-free. But, yeah, the fact that thousands of users have used it and there's been no major reports of serious problems is in its favor.
Well, give Starforce the same favor then, because thousands of people have used it without encountering any serious problems. At least for the latest versions.

Quote:
Not *yet*. But there have been many reports of people getting burned by previous versions. I'm still going to be wary for a while.
I'd stop using Windows right here, right now, because Windows 95 destroyed a lot more computers than Starforce ever will .
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:25 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Hate to break it for you, but once you actually RUN a local .exe, no anti-virus software will ever be able to save you from whatever that program is going to do. Anti virus software is mainly there to prevent you from clicking on it. Winrar could ruin your hard drive every time you unpack something.
Er, I dunno about you, but I *scan* my files for viruses before installing them.

And, yeah, Winrar could ruin my hard drive every time I unpack something. But if it did, you'd kinda think you'd hear lots of complaints about that happening, wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Phantom
Well, give Starforce the same favor then, because thousands of people have used it without encountering any serious problems. At least for the latest versions.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
I'd stop using Windows right here, right now, because Windows 95 destroyed a lot more computers than Starforce ever will .
And again, I already stated that, yeah, Windows can be dangerous, but you have to have some OS installed on your computer, and there's not a lot of OS choice yet without a lot of fuss, and software that's crucial to the functioning of other software has jack all to do with software that isn't... yadda, yadda, yadda. If you're going to use inappropriate analogies, at least think up some new ones.

I already dug up one analogy that I think is relevant... Opera's ad-serving system. Matches pretty well, IMHO: isn't necessary to the functioning of the program, only benefits the company, you don't have to install it (you can easily just use another browser), had accusations of damaging stuff levelled against it, etc.

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Old 02-03-2006, 02:12 PM   #64
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Er, I dunno about you, but I *scan* my files for viruses before installing them.
A virus scanner isn't looking for code that deletes files from your hard drive when it is scanning files. It looks for code that places the damaging piece of code on your computer without you knowing about it, and executes them. When the damaged software is embedded in a file that you have personally authorized for installation, it will go right past your anti-virus.

It's not even difficult. I could write you an executable that will go right past your virus scanner and do something nasty. The difficulty is to convince you to actually run that executable, and if that's impossible, find a way to run it on your computer without you knowing it, for example by embedding it in another piece of software (Winrar) or by spreading it through exploits in other pieces of software.

So once again, Winrar is just as potentially dangerous to your system as is Starforce, until proven otherwise. Don't get too paranoid about it.
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Old 02-03-2006, 03:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Phantom
It's not even difficult. I could write you an executable that will go right past your virus scanner and do something nasty. The difficulty is to convince you to actually run that executable, and if that's impossible, find a way to run it on your computer without you knowing it, for example by embedding it in another piece of software (Winrar) or by spreading it through exploits in other pieces of software.
Yeah, you could. And, again, if somebody did that, people would complain that the software damages your computer when you run it. And if the software was popular enough, anti-virus and other security companies would be scrambling to figure out what to do about it.

If you're really trying to sell me the thought that somebody could write a program that damages or could damage your computer, have several people (or more) install it and use it, and NOBODY EVER FIGURES OUT that it's damaging or there's a possible exploit, well, I'm not buying, sorry.

True it may lie dormant for many years, like the recent WMF problem. But then, as soon as somebody started exploiting the problem, WHAM, all sorts of techie sites were blabbing about it.

Finally, even if you argue that you're taking an already established program and adding your own malicious code to it, well, it's my own stupidity if I don't make sure I'm downloading the software from a site I know doesn't have a record of passing virus-laden versions of offerings.

Yeah, it always sucks if you're the first person to get bit by some exploit or malware. As I said, I know life isn't risk-free. But there's a far cry between taking a chance on software that lots of people haven't had complaints about, and taking a chance on software that lots of people *have* had complaints about. Again, not a good analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
So once again, Winrar is just as potentially dangerous to your system as is Starforce, until proven otherwise. Don't get too paranoid about it.
And seeing as how, again, nobody's made any major fuss about Winrar, but there's been major fuss about StarForce, well, I promise to dole out my paranoia accordingly.

Peace & Luv, Liz
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"Maybe it's still in the Elemental Plane of Candy."
"Is the Elemental Plane of Candy anything like Willy Wonka's factory?"
"If it is, would that mean Oompa Loompas are Candy Elementals?"
"Actually, I'm thinking more like the Candyland board game. But, I like this idea better."
"I like the idea of Oompa Loompa Elementals."
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:15 PM   #66
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I loathe software like StarForce because it's mingling with my hardware. Not only because it has the potential to render my hardware useless, it can also be exploited by hackers. Sony's DRM software is an example of such. I'm glad Sony got all this negative attention, and I hope they'll think twice before misleading its honest, law abiding custumers again, who had no idea what's happening behind the curtain when simply playing one of their CD's.

Ironically StarForce doesn't stop piracy of their protected games at all, so it's also completely useless, except to prevent honest customers from backing up their CD's to prevent wear of the original ones.

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Old 02-04-2006, 08:35 PM   #67
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Sorry, forgot to point up these "examples of StarForce telling complainers they are criminals".

Game journalist posts thoughts about current state of CP methods, including StarForce.

StarForce posts article essentially accusing game journalist of being a pirate.

Game journalist sends response.

Peace & Luv, Liz
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"Maybe it's still in the Elemental Plane of Candy."
"Is the Elemental Plane of Candy anything like Willy Wonka's factory?"
"If it is, would that mean Oompa Loompas are Candy Elementals?"
"Actually, I'm thinking more like the Candyland board game. But, I like this idea better."
"I like the idea of Oompa Loompa Elementals."
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Old 02-05-2006, 01:32 AM   #68
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I thought the title was "Starforce starts dishing out treats" and wanted to join in the fun.
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Old 02-05-2006, 02:26 AM   #69
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Whoa, this is great! It's up there with the best pieces by Samuel Beckett, Eugen Ionescu, Jack Thompson and other notable absurdists.
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Old 02-05-2006, 04:29 PM   #70
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Starforce claims "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" and victory over the known visible universe

What a bunch of self-rightious assholes I haven't been following this topic very thoroughly, but to me it seems obvious that there have been alot of people having issues caused by starforce drivers. By their own admission, SF drivers turn down the speed on optical drives, which causes certain drives to break down with time (my pretty new Pioneer DVD-RAM drive failed yesterday as well, suspiciously after I installed Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory two weeks ago, now it can't write a single CD or DVD). And there are tons of other issues caused by SF drivers, mainly on SATA, SCSI and 64-bits systems.

I honestly can't say if SF wrecked my DVD-RAM drive (4 months old), but I can't return it since the webshop where I bought the thing doesn't seem to exist anymore

I just uninstalled Chaos Theory (right in the middle of the Penthouse level) as soon I figured out that SF may be the cause, since I don't want to kill my new DVD-RAM drive as well. I guess I might try to trade CT for an Xbox version, but I doubt that'll work.

Starforce
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Old 02-05-2006, 04:38 PM   #71
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Is SF a US only thing? cause im pretty sure my copy of CT doesnt have starforce...
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Old 02-05-2006, 04:49 PM   #72
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Here's how to check on Win 2000 or XP:

From:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hard..._21092011.html

check for "hidden" drivers that may be messing up your installation:

Click Start->Run->CMD
SET DEVMGR_SHOW_NONPRESENT_DEVICES=1
START DEVMGMT.MSC
In the window that opens, Click View/Show all hidden devices.

StarForce drivers will show up in Non-Plug and Play Drivers
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Old 02-05-2006, 05:06 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmillo
Is SF a US only thing? cause im pretty sure my copy of CT doesnt have starforce...
It's down to the publisher to decide whether to use starforce or not, and often the publisher (and therefore whether starforce is used) differs across the globe.
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Old 02-05-2006, 07:35 PM   #74
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I've done enough reading on the topic to determine that StarForce is something I want no part of. Even if I haven't had (or at least detected) any problems when it installed with Still Life and the Earned in Blood demo, I have a real problem with something installing it's own drivers like that. Call me ignorant if you will, but I have my reasons for believing this is a strange, if not serious violation of security and trust.

That said, I removed both programs and ran the uninstall program linked from the StarForce webpage. I'm mostly worried about the slow degrading effects it could have on my DVDRW drive (though I'm not fully sure I understand how and why it happens). Is uninstalling the drivers enough to prevent possible damage to my drive, or does StarForce have the ability to stick around and mess with things even after it's been removed with the official program? Am I safe, or do I need to do anything else? My previous searches on the net have not really answered this question either way, so I thought I'd consult those more knowledgeable than I.
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Old 02-06-2006, 02:43 AM   #75
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I just looked at that link and even though I personaly havent had any run ins with starforce(dont even know if ive ever had it installed) I couldnt help but notices a few things

Quote:
The dogs are barking but the caravan keeps going.
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Quote:
The contest page was visited 48.000 times but we received 0 applications. No one showed up.
wow, those extra 0's almost fooled me there...48 whole times!? Its just mind boggoling

and they say that they never received any e-mails but how do we really know that, Ebaums world has been said to not have received any complaints despite allot of people saying they have. Apparently the legal departmen doesnt bother to pass them on which doesnt seem entirely doubtfull when starforce are dealing with their reputation and $10,000
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:03 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmillo
wow, those extra 0's almost fooled me there...48 whole times!? Its just mind boggoling
Well, they probably meant 48000 times. However, it's funny when they say:
Quote:
We had an open invitation to visit our office in order to display the issue and receive $10.000 US in case the person would have proven the problem to exist.
Because that's not the whole truth, they somehow "forgot" to mention that one of the terms was:
Quote:
After the installation and start-up of StarForce protected product the problem with (CD/DVD read-write malfunction) must exist and be reproduced in any other configuration.
. Which kind of goes against proving that some configurations have problems with StarForce.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:09 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmillo
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
A proverb. It usually is supposed to express an intent to continue your job despite the whiners.
Quote:
wow, those extra 0's almost fooled me there...48 whole times!? Its just mind boggoling
Er, no. Their dot = your comma. Notice that the prize is written using the same format: "$10.000".
Quote:
and they say that they never received any e-mails but how do we really know that, Ebaums world has been said to not have received any complaints despite allot of people saying they have. Apparently the legal departmen doesnt bother to pass them on which doesnt seem entirely doubtfull when starforce are dealing with their reputation and $10,000
While I do think that the whole competition is a poorly-conceived PR trick, I believe them when they say no entries were sent. I mean, with all the sh*t Starforce bashers throw at it, I'm sure that if the company was lying here, somebody would already confess he tried to enter the contest.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:13 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
Er, no. Their dot = your comma. Notice that the prize is written using the same format: "$10.000".
Perhaps they were only planning to give out $10 in the first place =P
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:40 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
While I do think that the whole competition is a poorly-conceived PR trick, I believe them when they say no entries were sent. I mean, with all the sh*t Starforce bashers throw at it, I'm sure that if the company was lying here, somebody would already confess he tried to enter the contest.
I also believe them, I don't know anyone willing to tow their PC all the way to Russia for a contest that cannot be won.
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:05 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmillo
Perhaps they were only planning to give out $10 in the first place =P
No, they just come the civilized part of the world, where everyone uses 10.000 instead of the utterly silly looking and confusing 10,000 .
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