[fov]

Originally Posted by Morozko

For example, Baba Yaga is THE witch in Russian folk stories, so it was quite pleasant to see her in games like "Quest for Glory".

I'd never heard of Baba Yaga before playing Quest for Glory. It was only after playing that game that I learned she was a traditional folk character. In fact, if I hadn't played that game, the part of Fairy Tale where Ivan encounters Baba Yaga's hut probably would not have made any sense to me.

By the way, as a kid, I absolutely loved a story by Wilhelm Hauff called "Longnose the Dwarf". To this day it's very popular in Russia and is being sold on DVD in an animated form. Have you ever heard of it?

I don't think so... unless it's similar to Pinocchio? (The puppet whose nose grows when he tells a lie.)

[Morozko]

Originally Posted by fov

I don't think so... unless it's similar to Pinocchio? (The puppet whose nose grows when he tells a lie.)

Well, there are several names by which the story goes, it's also known as "Little Longnose", for example. Here are some quotes about it:

"“Longnose the Dwarf” stars a clever little boy enslaved by a cruel witch’s curse. Freed from servitude but transformed into a hideous dwarf with a huge proboscis, he returns to parents who no longer recognize him. Luckily his culinary skills put him in good standing with the local Duke, and his good nature and generous heart restore him (with a little help from some magic herbs and an enchanted goose) to his family."

"Based on the classic Russian fairy tales of Wilhelm Hauff, Little Longnose is a milestone in Russian cinema, being the first theatrically released animated feature produced there in nearly 40 years.

Jacob and Princess Greta must thwart the wicked witch's plans and get back to their families.

An evil witch requires a pure-hearted boy as the final ingredient in her sinister plans so she has her eye on Jacob, the shoemaker's son. When Jacob refuses to cooperate, she casts a spell that turns him into a hunch-backed dwarf. Jacob saves the life of a goose who turns out to be Princess Greta, also a victim of the evil witch, and the two join forces to get back to their families and stop the witch's plans.

Beautifully animated, Little Longnose is funny and sometimes spooky - like all good fairy tales. It's a magical story that confirms the strength of goodness, family and friendship."

The latter quote is from this link http://www.cinemagic.org.uk/display/..._world?s_id=18

"An evil witch needs Jacob, the kind-hearted shoemaker's son, in order to carry out her sinister plans. When Jacob refuses, the witch takes away seven years of his life and turns him into an ugly dwarf. The witch is sure that this misfortune will be too much for Jacob to bear and that he will give in and help her.

With seven years gone, Jacob returns to his home as a dwarf but nothing is the same. His father has died from grief and even his own mother can't recognize him. The people of the town mock him and drive him away. Jacob does not know what to do.

And then one day while running away from his persecutors, Jacob saves the life of a goose. But this is not an ordinary goose, it is the King's daughter Princess Greta, who was kidnapped and put under a spell when she discovered the witch in her father's library stealing the secret that will give her the power to rule the kingdom.

Jacob and the Princess join together to get back to their families and stop the witch's evil plan."

Here's a link to a Russian trailer from it (10.3 Megs):

http://melnitsa.com/video/films/Karlik_big.WMV

I don't know if there's an English version of it but if you can find it, it's quite an interesting little story. I know for sure that the Russian DVD version has English subtitles as an option though. They used to have a series with it that starred real actors, and that's what I saw first. Then came the animation.

[AFGNCAAP]

Teehee, when I saw that the witch is referred to as "Baba Yaga" in QfG I was startled: "So she is that known in western folklore too?". Now I see it was rather the matter of Lori and Corey Cole having done their homework properly.

[Fairygdmther]

Morozko, thank you so much for coming in and posting on this thread! I opened this thread as I had played the game a year ago, and was delighted with it. While you, who are so familiar with the story, might be disappointed with the game if it doesn't hold true to the fairy tale, for me it was a fun story. I hope you do get a chance to play it, and come back to us to report on it. Your input on the game and background was wonderful to read. And your grasp of English is amazingly good. I would like to hear more from you.

FGM-Lyn

[fov]

Originally Posted by Morozko

Well, there are several names by which the story goes, it's also known as "Little Longnose", for example.

To tell you the truth, the part about the dwarf doesn't sound familiar, but the part about the goose does. I can't put my finger on why though. In any case, I don't think there's a well known English version of this story.

This has all gotten me thinking... has anyone read [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/014017821X//ref=nosim/adventuregame-20 Carter's fairy tales[/url]? They are "mature" retellings of some classic stories (not dirty or pornographic, but some can be considered a little erotic). They're beautifully dark and rich. We read these in the same fairy tale class where I read the complete Grimm. Some of these stories would make *wonderful* adventure games -- they have the same classic story elements of a fairy tale but are written for adults, with much more complex character relationships. Dunno... they might not translate well into a game because the language is a big part of what makes the stories so rich... but I could see them being collected into a game like Poe's stories were in the Dark Eye. (Especially if passages from the stories were used to narrate parts of the game, the way narrative text was used in Callahan's Crosstime Saloon...)

[Morozko]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

Morozko, thank you so much for coming in and posting on this thread! I opened this thread as I had played the game a year ago, and was delighted with it. While you, who are so familiar with the story, might be disappointed with the game if it doesn't hold true to the fairy tale, for me it was a fun story. I hope you do get a chance to play it, and come back to us to report on it. Your input on the game and background was wonderful to read. And your grasp of English is amazingly good. I would like to hear more from you.

FGM-Lyn

Thank you so much for the kind words. I'm glad that even though the game may not be perfect, it still managed to carry some of the Russian folklore charm in it. I'm very happy that people like it nonetheless (good with the bad, I guess ). I will try very hard to find it, be it ebay or similar.

By the way, I mentioned westerns before. Well, the funny thing is that the best westerns (as in genre), I like, were made by Russians. It may sound funny but now that I've lived abroad for 10 years, I can tell the actors did quite a good job of playing cowboys and cowgirls. And no, they weren't trying to portray them in some bad stereotypical views, in fact, the heros in the movies were very likable, cool, and reasonable. For some reason, whenever I see a western movie or just a non-Russian movie with Russians in them, the Russians are almost always portrayed as very unreasonable characters with strong stereotypical accents, which is funny to me. Take the "Star Gate SG-1" show for example. I love it but... whenever it involves Russians, they're always evil and bad or very unreasonable, lol. Or they're the first to die on a mission. (laughs) Or they try to poke fun at Russian military technology, when, in fact, if you check THE military source "Jane's", you'll find that Russian military tech is some of the most competitive and some of it is even more advanced than American military tech. But it's a Canadian/US show, so I guess that sort of thing should be expected and just laughted at lightly, without getting upset.

[Morozko]

fov, I haven't read them but you got me curious now and I may just check them out.

[Tramboi]

Oh I'm so disappointed this thread is not about this game : http://zorro.kicks-ass.org/cgi-bin/c....cgi?record=57
Now this one DID set standards

[Morozko]

I'm trying to remember an old adventure game I saw somewhere. I don't think it was that great but it was set in Russian mediaeval folklore universe. I believe the main character was named "John", who's supposedly an American traveling in Russia. By the way, John is English for Ivan.

[Maquisard]

This is interesting. In Serbia, our name for Santa Claus is Deda Mraz (or Moroz in Russian), but I was always under the impression that he was a communist figure, designed to disassociate Christmas/New Year from religion. New Year is the bigger holiday in Serbia, so I guess they've done it. I may be wrong about his origins, seeing as how he is also present in Russian folklore (we have Baba Roga/Yaga as well, btw). But I do know that another Chrismas figure exists called Bozic Bata (Christmas Buddy or Christmas Bro'?), who is not as widespread anymore. So quite possibly, Deda Mraz is indeed a figure borrowed from our former communist allies in Russia, with ulterior motives. Never thought you'd see a conspiracy theory involving Santa Clause, huh?

P.S. I too used to love movies based on Russian folk stories when I was I kid. I haven't seen this particular one, but I do remember the one with all the salt: You know the one--
King's daughter is dating the salt prince, and when the king gets angry at the daughter for saying she loves him more than salt (as opposed to the more extravagant items her sisters mentioned), and disowns her, her prince takes away all the salt in the land, just to prove how important salt is. All hell brakes loose, when the king is forced to flavor his pork with sugar, etc. Fascinating story.

[fov]

Originally Posted by Mares

King's daughter is dating the salt prince, and when the king gets angry at the daughter for saying she loves him more than salt (as opposed to the more extravagant items her sisters mentioned), and disowns her, her prince takes away all the salt in the land, just to prove how important salt is. All hell brakes loose, when the king is forced to flavor his pork with sugar, etc. Fascinating story.

THAT sounds like a story Americans would love. I'm kind of surprised McDonalds hasn't done a cartoon version chock full of product placement. (It also sounds a bit like King Lear.)

[Morozko]

Originally Posted by Mares

This is interesting. In Serbia, our name for Santa Claus is Deda Mraz (or Moroz in Russian), but I was always under the impression that he was a communist figure, designed to disassociate Christmas/New Year from religion. New Year is the bigger holiday in Serbia, so I guess they've done it. I may be wrong about his origins, seeing as how he is also present in Russian folklore (we have Baba Roga/Yaga as well, btw). But I do know that another Chrismas figure exists called Bozic Bata (Christmas Buddy or Christmas Bro'?), who is not as widespread anymore. So quite possibly, Deda Mraz is indeed a figure borrowed from our former communist allies in Russia, with ulterior motives. Never thought you'd see a conspiracy theory involving Santa Clause, huh?

"Ded Moroz" or "Dedushka Moroz" is not a communist figure by any means. While I have heard the theory you mentioned before, it's only a theory, popular in the west at some point. My guess is that because Santa Claus originated in Finland, Russians didn't want someone else's Christmas figure but rather their own or at least a more personified or "Russianized" one, if you will. Here's a quote about "Ded Moroz" origins. Somehow, I don't think that shows a communist origin or influence:

"The origins of Ded Moroz are a mystery. A hundred years ago, there was no Ded Moroz in Russia. He first appeared on Christmas cards at the end of the 19th century. He was invented by an anonymous genius of art nouveau, and emerged in several countries at once.

In Germany the character is known as Ruprecht, in England he is known as Santa Claus - St. Nicholas, and the French refer to him as Pere Noel. The characters all look alike; they are all tall bearded old men with fur hats and red coats. Interestingly, the character was invented at the same time as movies and airplanes and the first experiments in radioactivity.

He came to Russia not only through cards but also through Shrovetide events, where he was depicted with a red nose and a long beard. He also had a beautiful snow maiden granddaughter, which was reminiscent of Moroz, a hero from ancient Russian fairy tales."

http://www.raaad.org/print.php?sid=94

As you can tell from the quote, the origins go to ancient Russian fairytale hero "Moroz" or "Morozko".

EDIT: Summary: I just realized that my explanation along with quotes may have been a bit confusing. So, let me put it this way -- the communist figure theory is utter and disrespectful BS or even propaganda made by some unknown western figures. While perhaps there was no "Ded Moroz" figure in Russia as a term 100 years ago, there was always "Moroz" or "Morozko" as an ancient Russian grandfather figure associated with "Frost" and Winter, which is what most likely became a modern "Ded Moroz". The later additions to the term were nothing more than additions, "Moroz" has always been in Russia and its folklore.

By the way, "Snegurochka" isn't the only helper of "Ded Moroz", there's "Snegovik" ("Snowman"), snow bunnies, and many folk and creatures. Also, "Snegurochka" more exactly is supposed to be a granddaughter of "Father Frost" rather than just a helper or a maiden.

Originally Posted by Mares

P.S. I too used to love movies based on Russian folk stories when I was I kid. I haven't seen this particular one, but I do remember the one with all the salt: You know the one--
King's daughter is dating the salt prince, and when the king gets angry at the daughter for saying she loves him more than salt (as opposed to the more extravagant items her sisters mentioned), and disowns her, her prince takes away all the salt in the land, just to prove how important salt is. All hell brakes loose, when the king is forced to flavor his pork with sugar, etc. Fascinating story.

LoL, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure which story you mean... Perhaps I will remember later.

[Morozko]

Ok, I found that old adventure game I mentioned before, the one that is based in mediaeval Russia. It's called "Tsarevna", which is a mediaeval Russian word for "Princess". Here's a quote about it:

"Tsarevna is a cartoon adventure game that brings back memories of old good PC quests. With funny plot, colorful graphics and nonviolent story this game offers you hours of fun for the entire family. You will not only solve the puzzles but also have a unique possibility of the insight at the life of a medieval Russian city (being primarily the entertainment, the game nevertheless is based on true historical facts many of which have never been known to you before).

You control a modern American called Bob Bisquit [Ed: oops, I thought it was John] and your quest in this engaging tale is to win the hand in marriage of a beautiful Russian princess. Her father promised that only the man who can find out her real name will be able to marry Tsarevna. The task seems to be easy, but the game actually requires quite a lot of talking to non-player characters as well as careful observation of the surroundings."

Here's a link to review of Medieval Russia and the game background story:

http://www.yavsoft.com/tsarevna/story.html

I think there's an abandonware version of it floating around the net. But several sources also say that an unregistered version of the game has some restrictions, including some areas being inaccessible. I'm not sure what version is "abandonware" now. I haven't played the game personally yet, so I do not know if it's good or not.

[artwking4]

Originally Posted by Morozko

I'm glad to hear that. I did watch MST a bit before. Well, not really "watch" but I caught glimples of it and did, in fact, see some western movies on it as well but the movies I did see were usually regarded as "crap" even by westerners themselves. Did they ever bash "Gone With the Wind"? I doubt it. So, that's why I thought it was disrespectful on their part.

Quick jump to MST3K again -- I'm sure they would have loved to do great classics like Gone With the Wind, or other popular movies. Except that the rights to do those films would have cost a fortune, and that's if the studio was okay with the idea. Great comedy writers like them can find humor in just about anything, no matter whether the source material was good, bad, or average. You should probably see the episode in question, though. They aren't exactly malicious with every film or actor. Except for Joe Don Baker. And Manos: The Hands of Fate. That movie is godawful.

As for the story of Father Frost, it's actually pretty charming. I'd probably like it more if I was kid, though. I'd probably give the game a shot, though.

[Morozko]

Originally Posted by artwking4

Quick jump to MST3K again -- I'm sure they would have loved to do great classics like Gone With the Wind, or other popular movies. Except that the rights to do those films would have cost a fortune, and that's if the studio was okay with the idea. Great comedy writers like them can find humor in just about anything, no matter whether the source material was good, bad, or average. You should probably see the episode in question, though. They aren't exactly malicious with every film or actor. Except for Joe Don Baker. And Manos: The Hands of Fate. That movie is godawful.

I don't want to watch a butchered version mixed with some bad mockery that they call "comedy". If they made a small intro saying something like "we actually liked the movie, which is why we decided to see if we can make it look bad in any way" then maybe I could possibly give it a try (even then I'd be sceptical) but from what I've seen of MST before, I won't hold my breath. Just the fact that they can only afford "bad movies" can be misleading to the viewers who suddenly see "Morozko" on MST and have not heard of the movie before. I see it as a huge misrepresentation and very disrespectful. There are plenty of bad movies out there. Heck, most of the Hollywood movies are awful awful crap nowadays, with only a few gems once in a blue moon. But just in case, I'm going to hold a small hope that the only reason they did it was because they really liked the movie, even if it's not true.

[artwking4]

Originally Posted by Morozko

I won't hold my breath.

That's a good idea. The show has been cancelled for years, you'll be happy to know. No more will MST3K disrespect and defecate on those fine gems of filmmaking known as low-budget "B" movies, or even poorly-dubbed foreign films. However, the show aired for ten seasons and no one sent them any pipe bombs in the mail in protest. So I guess they had that going for them.

Originally Posted by Morozko

Just the fact that they can only afford "bad movies" can be misleading to the viewers who suddenly see "Morozko" on MST and have not heard of the movie before. I see it as a huge misrepresentation and very disrespectful.

The "Jack Frost" episode (I don't know why someone changed it to that) was featured in the eighth season, so the show itself was pretty well established, and any studio, or whoever holds the rights to the original film, would know full well what they were allowing their "baby" to go through. If it really was so disrespectful, they probably wouldn't have gone through with it. Either that, or they just really want more money. Here's how I see the conversation going:

MST3K: We're going to take your film and and make all kinds of sarcastic and/or funny remarks about the actors, plot, dialogue, photography, sets, costumes, direction, etc. We're also going to edit it for content, and to run in the allotted time for commercials. Some people are going to watch this and laugh.

Film Studio: Sure! Can we have some money now?

Anyway, as for judging which movies are, in fact, bad, that's ultimately up to the audience. They're certainly entitled to their own on-air opinions, just like any film critic. I've actually enjoyed a few of the movies on their own merit, even without the humorous commentary. "Jack Frost" is one of those I liked, at least compared to all the other films they've done. The fact that MST3K made fun of it doesn't mean it's bad. It just fit into the profile of the kind of shows that they do: low budget (at least by today's standards - it could have been state of the art when the film was originally produced), science fiction/fantasy, quirky/unusual/campy/takes itself too serious (any of those), and some other traits I'm sure exist but can't think of at the moment.

The whole point of the show is to enjoy the film on a different level, by not taking it so seriously. If someone wants to see it as it was intended, that can try to do that on their own. In fact, some of the DVD releases of MST3K episodes also included the full, uncut, original version of the movie without the commentary.

[Morozko]

Originally Posted by artwking4

However, the show aired for ten seasons and no one sent them any pipe bombs in the mail in protest. So I guess they had that going for them.

Well, it was a cheap show, wasn't it? Being able to afford ten seasons doesn't seem that surprising in their case. If they were able to afford "Gone with the Wind(s)" for ten seasons, that would've been more impressive. However, perhaps the show was too cheap or too boring. The official reason it was cancelled was low ratings. I think that speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by artwking4

If it really was so disrespectful, they probably wouldn't have gone through with it. Either that, or they just really want more money. Here's how I see the conversation going:

MST3K: We're going to take your film and and make all kinds of sarcastic and/or funny remarks about the actors, plot, dialogue, photography, sets, costumes, direction, etc. We're also going to edit it for content, and to run in the allotted time for commercials. Some people are going to watch this and laugh.

Film Studio: Sure! Can we have some money now?

Actually, I think the conversation went a lot simpler than that:

MST3K: Ok, what next movie review license can we afford? A-ha! It's within our budget, so let's go with this one.

No one knows how the conversation really went. How do you know they explained it that way? Perhaps they just said they will "review" the movie because they're a "review" show. Of course, their definition of "review" seems to be a bad mockery. However, if, indeed, the movie review rights were all about the money, then it seems MST3K got used in the end, as I found old MST3K newsgroup and forum posts where people thought that "Jack Frost" was one of the better movies shown and went and bought the Russian DVD version of it from Ruscico. It seems it's backfired at MST after all, even though their original intent wasn't good-spirited.

Originally Posted by artwking4

Anyway, as for judging which movies are, in fact, bad, that's ultimately up to the audience. They're certainly entitled to their own on-air opinions, just like any film critic.

Constructive criticism is one thing but bad mockery that's not even a good comedy is another. How can an audience really judge a movie they haven't seen before, as it was being aired first time on MST3K, when someone constantly bashes it on the background?

Originally Posted by artwking4

The whole point of the show is to enjoy the film on a different level, by not taking it so seriously. If someone wants to see it as it was intended, that can try to do that on their own. In fact, some of the DVD releases of MST3K episodes also included the full, uncut, original version of the movie without the commentary.

The movie in question already doesn't take itself too seriously, there's absolutely no need to add a layer of bad comedy to it. And if someone wants to see it as intended, they can't while the show is being aired. Only if you pay money later for a DVD version. Also, the problem with that is if kids end up seeing the show, they will not understand that it might be a good movie, even some adults don't. For example, I've found several MST3K fan sites with poor excuses for "reviewers" that claimed to be buddy-buddy with MST3K hosts, and yet they have their own reviews of the show's episodes with racist and downright disrespectful remarks about "Father Frost". I have found a site with two complete idiots named Don and Forrest that claim to be biggest fans of the show, and claiming that anyone who hates the show is unintelligent (in About section). Wow, really intelligent reviewers we got there! I don't regret one bit I said about the show. It tried to "rate" movies as "bad" but in the end, the show itself got rated as "bad" and low and was cancelled. Serves them right.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by Morozko

...a note to this site's editors: don't let this girl go, she rocks!

... l...y... M...o...r..g...a...

Sorry, what's that? I wasn't paying attention. Too busy writing out pink slips. Darn, Emily's got a fan club now. Guess we'll have to keep her. Nothing's ever easy!

(OK, no, you can be sure that Emily's contributions are highly valued by the site's editor. And many others, no doubt.)

Constructive criticism is one thing but bad mockery that's not even a good comedy is another. How can an audience really judge a movie they haven't seen before, as it was being aired first time on MST3K, when someone constantly bashes it on the background?

Good or bad comedy is obviously subjective, but your complaints are clearly based on principle, not on quality. Indeed, mockery is completely different than constructive criticism, and the show made no pretense of offering the latter. Love it or hate it, you know what you're getting with MST3K.

Anyway, feel free to continue this particular debate in Chit Chat, but let's get back to having this thread open for feedback of the actual site content in question.

[Morozko]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Good or bad comedy is obviously subjective, but your complaints are clearly based on principle, not on quality. Indeed, mockery is completely different than constructive criticism, and the show made no pretense of offering the latter. Love it or hate it, you know what you're getting with MST3K.

Such as a basic principle of respecting other cultures' folklore? Heh, actually, my "complaints" are based on quality and advantage of knowing the movie's original language, the cultural background and folklore that stands behind it -- something MST3K "reviewers" couldn't even pretend to have but chose to ignore. And just because MST3K admits they're a mockery show, does not automatically make them good. Certainly, being a mockey show, they should be able to take some criticism back? Anyway, the fact remains -- they got their butts canned.

Originally Posted by Jackal

Anyway, feel free to continue this particular debate in Chit Chat, but let's get back to having this thread open for feedback of the actual site content in question.

Alright, I was getting tired of this turning into a huge argument anyway. I will just leave it at what I said and add no more.

[EasilyConfused]

Erm, I have no idea what's going on in this thread; haven't read it. But I did read and enjoy the review. Sounds like an unusual game--knitting? Fun! I also took a fairy tales class and wish more games had fairy tale themes (actually, tons of them do, but that's another topic . . . one that might have been covered in the giant debate above for all I know. ) Anyway, thanks, Emily.