03-20-2005, 07:29 AM | #21 | |
Musenik
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My premise is, Emily's opening and ending statements reinforce exclusivity. That's what I walked away with, regardless of my initial chortle. That's what I'm talking about. Just because you didn't experience the same thing, doesn't me what I experienced isn't important. Will you now say you're better than me at reading? |
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03-20-2005, 09:57 AM | #22 |
Rattenmonster
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A joke's not a good joke if it doesn't make people a little uncomfortable. I learned that in psychology.
You've made your point -- you're uncomfortable with the joke. I'm sorry that that's the case. No one else seems to be, though, and you already said you don't take issue with the body of the article. Why is this being beaten into the ground? If you're looking for an apology for what I wrote, it ain't gonna happen. I've been known to make poor jokes in the past, but this isn't one of them. -emily |
03-20-2005, 11:03 AM | #23 |
Musenik
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I haven't asked for an apology. I'm not looking for an apology. I made an original remark about my concern, and that satisfied me.
Then several responders tried to rationalize that my concern wasn't important. I stood up for myself. I gave an example of why I was concerned. I thought that was the end of it when the conversation digressed into a thread of ridiculous hijinx, as forum threads often do. Then another person suggested that no problem existed, and I reiterated that I had one, and I supported my original premise with an illustrative example. That person returned with a remark so tattooed with a bulls-eye, I loosed what I continued to hope would be my last rebuttal. Why are you calling that 'beaten into the ground'? It's just a debate. |
03-20-2005, 11:08 AM | #24 | |
Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron
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Nobody is demonstrating the weaknesses of casual gamers except the maker of the game reviewed. Humour might be often used by bullies, but that doesn't mean you're a bully if you use humour. |
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03-20-2005, 01:26 PM | #25 | |
Musenik
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03-20-2005, 02:40 PM | #26 | |
Freeware Co-ordinator
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As I said before, (and Emily confirmed) I saw that opening line as a dig at the very prejudices you are accusing her of reinforcing (intentionally or accidentally) Humour has been used in this fashioon for decades. To take your Canadian example, "South Park - The Movie" represented Canadians as all having wobbly heads and funny accents. Thiis serves as a perfect example of a stereotype showing a group of people as "different" allowing justification for war (when the real problems are clearly closer to home) Similarly, an episode had a new flag for the town depicting a black figure being hung by a group of white figures. The town-wide argument about racism is halted in it's tracks when it's discovered the boy's haven't noticed the difference in skin colour. And who exactly are you saying is going to be oppressed anyway. It's already been made clear that most casual gamers won't even recognise the label (it only has meaning within the game community) so they can't be offended if they don't think it applies to them. Do you perceive a future in which more serious gamers (like the members of this site) will dominate and belittle less committed players? I'm not sure what you're aiming for. You've already said you don't want an apology. You've been keen to stress you don't think one group should be considered superior to another but no-one appears to be disagreeing with you on that (just that this was not Emily's intention, her being a games reviewer with an arguably poor sense of humour rather than a bully) Are you saying writers have to carefully scrutinise everything they say for possible offence? (Can't call the good guys white hats and the bad guys black hats. Could be viewed as racist) If so, then I must stand firmly against you. Not allowing a light, self-mocking remark which can't offend any group (since the group doesn't even know it exists per se) is a severe curtailment of freedom of speech and I kind of value that.
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No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43 Cold Topic A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree |
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03-20-2005, 05:12 PM | #27 | ||
Musenik
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Are you saying that no-one should be allowed to express their opinions about that which is written? If so, then I must stand firmly against you. As for the non-existence of the oppressed, of course the casual gamer exists. It certainly exists in the minds of some people here who call themselves non-casual or serious gamers. I believe an earlier poster claimed to be a 'better gamer'. He must be comparing himself to someone. So far, the only examples I've read here of people's opinions of 'casual gamers' have been negative. I don't think that's very neighborly, and I exercised my right to comment on it. How about we all meet in a bar, beat the crap out of each other, and share a few beers afterwards? My carpel-tunnel's acting up... |
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03-20-2005, 06:35 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
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Of course casual gamers are people.
Now, hardcore gamers on the other hand... |
03-21-2005, 03:46 AM | #29 | ||||||
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No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43 Cold Topic A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree |
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03-21-2005, 03:49 AM | #30 |
How am I not myself?
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Okay Musenik, you've proved your point. Casual gamers ARE people too.
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03-21-2005, 04:29 AM | #31 | |||
Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron
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If a brown eyed kid makes a comment about ugly blue eyed kids after the teacher has separated the two groups, he's out of line. However, if a brown eyed kid makes a comment before the separation about blue eyed kids having blue eyes, he's only stating the obvious. Eye colour isn't something that is used to gauge people's worth as human beings, neither is skill in gaming. Just because I think I can get head shots in Counter-Strike more often than people who haven't played it doesn't mean I harbour some negative feelings against those people. |
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03-21-2005, 09:10 AM | #32 | |
Hopeful skeptic
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Interesting that this debate is still going on. Musenik, by all means, speak your mind freely. No one has remotely suggested you shouldn't.
What isn't clear is that you ARE actually speaking up for anybody, because you've yet to identify anyone who'd be offended. You've failed to address that question on several occasions. Until you do, this is an interesting theoretical exercise, but that's all. What's funny to me is that I'm usually one of the most outspoken opponents of adventure gamers spouting elitist crap towards other genres. This is simply NOT such a case. You've refused to acknowledge that Emily's comments are, in fact, a tongue-in-cheek way of overcoming the very prejudice you're concerned about. The "context" that you're missing is that those two insensitive, offensive, bullying (ahem) lines come in an entire article devoted to exploring a game that was created "specifically for the downloadable market." Meaning, not for experienced adventure gamers; the readers of this site. Further meaning, simply by virtue of writing the article about a game the developer made for a "different group", Emily has already shown more respect for the casual gamer than... well, from what I can gather... pretty much anyone else. How much easier to simply ignore the whole thing altogether? By choosing to remove a few words from their original written context, magnifying and analyzing them on their own, you've completely distorted their purpose. Could someone still misconstrue them in context? I suppose. Could the article have picked a safer, more sanitized joke? Sure. But as has already been said, we're not going to cater to the most hyper-sensitive people that might potentially be out there. We obviously differ on where to draw the line, as to me this IS about being politically correct, and not about showing basic respect. I'll just close with this. If there's a segregating statement in the entire article, it's the excerpt taken from this statement on the game's website: Quote:
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03-21-2005, 01:13 PM | #33 | |
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In fact, I find Musenik's general principle (that calling one social group inherently superior to another is a bad thing) to be sound. I just feel it is misplaced in the context that it was raised.
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No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43 Cold Topic A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree |
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03-21-2005, 02:14 PM | #34 | |
Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron
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Although I do think you have the goals of debate a bit wrong. It would hardly be possible without telling "why they are wrong", although you have to be diplomatic about. Convincing people is rarely possible, debate usually helps more with establishing your own views. Note the "why", but I can't fathom how debate would be possible without disagreement. |
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03-21-2005, 04:55 PM | #35 | |
Musenik
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From my point of view. I'd just returned from the GDC, where a lot of experienced gamers were talking all about casual gamers being the current force that's growing the PC games market, and how THEY've lowered the level of games. So when I read the opening line, I smiled at her phrasing, but I also rolled my eyes a little. After a while, I felt I should comment about it. I've learned a LOT about the culture here, since then. <smile> |
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03-21-2005, 06:27 PM | #36 | |
merely human
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platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien |
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03-21-2005, 06:56 PM | #37 |
merely human
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Also, Musenik, I hope you're also aware that we have a HUGE number of other good things here to offer you besides Emily's article, here in the forums as well as all of AG.com. Why don't you go explore? Your energy spent on this thread alone could also be re-channeled discovering us as a site and as an awesome community. Thanks for joining us.
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platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien Last edited by Intrepid Homoludens; 03-21-2005 at 08:11 PM. |
03-22-2005, 03:13 AM | #38 | |
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I'm not suggesting anyone really tries to do a survey like this. if nothing else, there are far more important subjects (even just in the field of discrimination) that such energy could be devoted to. Just don't tell people they are wrong unless you're dealing with indisputable fact.
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No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43 Cold Topic A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree |
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03-22-2005, 06:57 AM | #39 |
Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron
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This is not my native language, stepurhan, please let's not get bogged down by semantics. Of course we debate opinions, who in their right mind would have a debate over facts?
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03-22-2005, 12:37 PM | #40 | |
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By no rocket’s blue shade am no shells dead down there, Gave no proof all day long that the flag was unwhere! No say does am spar-strangled shroud hang limply! Under land of no free! Am us home coward-leeee! ~Excerpt from the Bizarro Anthem |
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