Which Review Do You Have the Most Beef With? - Page 3

SoccerDude28 · 03-03-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov

Well good. Because I don't consider Grim Fandango a 4.5 star game.

You consider it a 5 star game huh??

EasilyConfused · 03-03-2005, 11:53 AM

I really don't understand the purpose of this thread. It seems to me the thread could be about two things.

First of all, people could be simply be asking which games others liked more or less than AG's reviewers did. That's all well and good . . . but we talk about what games we like and dislike all the time, and it's clear there are a ton of games (er, actually, most of them really

) about which many of us disagree.

Second, the thread could be implying (as many people seem to be, constantly and erroneously) that there is some OBJECTIVE standard out there for evaluating games. There is no such thing. There are no objective standards in ANY kind of reviewing. There are degrees of objectivity. AG I think bends over backwards to eliminate bias, and the reviewers do their darndest to give an overall, comprehensive, complete and fair account of a game. That's why I think this is the best adventure site on the web and that's why I read these reviews. At the end of the day, though, a review is the (hopefully thoughtful, considered) opinion of one gamer who played it, and the reader should be aware of that. The scores are similarly limiting--there are only 11 potential grades, after all--if we're counting zero stars as a possibility.

As for whether game X "deserves" the same score as game Y--that question doesn't really make sense to me. Could you say whether Citizen Kane, The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, and Casablanca all "deserve" the same rating as films, even if they got the same number of stars at a film fan site or in a video guide? They appeal to different people with different tastes in different moods. I'm not saying you can't make any comparisons, but that these comparisons will necessarily be general trends that are matters of taste and opinion rather than anything clear-cut and inarguable.

So I don't have a beef with any review. All the reviews I've read seem fair and legitimate to me, even if I disagree with them. I think they've all been done in good faith, and I've never seen a single hatchet job on this site. I hope things stay that way.

Maquisard · 03-03-2005, 12:06 PM

The thing is, AG isn't the only place with reviews. While I mostly trust their judgement, you should check out some other sites besides AG to get an idea of an "average" grade for a game. I think this is actually why they regularly link to game reviews on other websites.

VoodooFX · 03-03-2005, 12:54 PM

While I disagree with some of the grades, I tend not to complain about it. I don't give a damn about scores, numbers, percents, stars, could be apples for all I care, it's all the same to me.

What I value in a good review are clearly written positive and negative aspects of the game. I want to know, what bothered the reviewer, so I can compare his/hers views with mine.

Lets take Indy and the Last Crusade for example... reviewer wrote she hated the fighting sequences... ok, I don't mind those, one less negative point for the game in my eyes.

Don't like direct controls of Grim? I have no problems with them.

Don't like dark and twisted humor of Sam & Max? I laugh my a** off with these guys.

Like the timed sequences? Well I hate them, and no matter hard you try to put them in good light for me, I'll still hate them.

So you see, reviews will never be completely objective, but they can be qualitly written nevertheless. And I for one, think they are just that.

gillyruless · 03-03-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasilyConfused

I really don't understand the purpose of this thread. It seems to me the thread could be about two things.

I think that the point of this thread was to point out the AG review that you disagree with the most. I don't think there was any greater intention, such as suggesting that there needs to be an objective standard for reviewing games, behind it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasilyConfused

As for whether game X "deserves" the same score as game Y--that question doesn't really make sense to me. Could you say whether Citizen Kane, The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, and Casablanca all "deserve" the same rating as films, even if they got the same number of stars at a film fan site or in a video guide? They appeal to different people with different tastes in different moods. I'm not saying you can't make any comparisons, but that these comparisons will necessarily be general trends that are matters of taste and opinion rather than anything clear-cut and inarguable.

Any review has to do with taste so you are right, EC, in that a direct comparison of reviews of different games or movies are often not meaningful. However, it's also possible that some consensus can be reached even on taste. For example, it might be hard to compare Gone with the Wind to Casablanca but most people would agree that either of those movies are superior to Weekend at Bernie's 2. Not everyone would agree but the general consensus would be that Casablanca is a superior movie to Weekend at Bernie's 2. The same can be said of adventure games, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasilyConfused

So I don't have a beef with any review. All the reviews I've read seem fair and legitimate to me, even if I disagree with them. I think they've all been done in good faith, and I've never seen a single hatchet job on this site. I hope things stay that way.

I think the phrase "having a beef" in this case was used to indicate the term, "disagree". In that sense, I can say that I "have a beef" with the rating of Black Dahlia because I think it deserved a better rating.

SakSquash · 03-03-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gillyruless

I think that the point of this thread was to point out the AG review that you disagree with the most. I don't think there was any greater intention, such as suggesting that there needs to be an objective standard for reviewing games, behind it.

You got it!

Biggup ya'self!

MDMaster · 03-04-2005, 03:14 PM

When people start answering to posts in 'sections', it's time to change topic...

Ninth · 03-04-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gillyruless

Not everyone would agree but the general consensus would be that Casablanca is a superior movie to Weekend at Bernie's 2. The same can be said of adventure games, I think.

Exactly. I firmly believe that there are objective ways to judge a game.
And thinking that a game deserves a good grade is not the same thing as liking it, and vice versa.
For example, I loved Dune, but I would rate it, say, 2/5, while I didn't like Broken Sword, but still would rate 4/5.
I read the stars as an indication of how well the game stands technically, gameplay-wise, and story-wise.

Leo · 03-09-2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

I don't doubt that reviewing is subjective, but you guys should have a basis on which grades are given. And the most important aspect is that you should take other games into consideration. I mean maybe the person who played Runaway really enjoyed the game, which is fine, but then they should take the game and compare it to a game like Grim and say:"Are these 2 games really the same quality"?

For any outsider, seeing Grim and Runaway get 4.5 stars implies they are of the same quality, which does not reflect fairly on the 2 games mentioned.

What if the person reviewing Runaway didn't play GF? Or if he/she didn't even like it? I think if a reviewer thinks a game deserves 4.5 stars they should give it 4.5 stars. After all, a review is just one person's opinion.

SakSquash · 03-10-2005, 05:57 PM

I can't believe this is still going!

bigjko · 03-10-2005, 11:38 PM

It's pretty silly discussing this, because it's just one reviewer's opinion, and nobody's going to change it. What matters is the content of the review, not the score.

Terabin · 03-11-2005, 03:12 AM

The numbers mean a great deal to me having experience with statistics in the past. In many ways, the score a game gets frames the way I read the actual review.

On perhaps a slight side note, One of the most frustrating things I experience with reviews comes while reading reviews in which the written portion did not seem to line up with the rating given. For example, a music reviewer would praise an album and then give it three out of five stars.

bigjko · 03-11-2005, 04:44 AM

And that's why ratings are evil and should be abandoned completely. They don't fudgestickin' matter, since everyone has individual tastes, and might like some of the stuff that is bashed in the review, and therefore the only important thing about reviews is the written text. There.

***Jackal*** · 03-11-2005, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terabin

One of the most frustrating things I experience with reviews comes while reading reviews in which the written portion did not seem to line up with the rating given. For example, a music reviewer would praise an album and then give it three out of five stars.

This should never happen. It's either a badly written review, or the score indicates too much arbitrary subjectivity (or both).

I like ratings, personally, but I only use them for their intended purpose - a sort of quick reference indicator of a reviewer's overall impression.

About AG's ratings, just remember that the stars represent ranges. Even games with the same score are not identical in quality. If we used percentages, one game might get a 76% and another 84%, but still fall into the same star classification.

03-12-2005, 01:50 AM

Isabelle got half a star because it had "pretty colors".
Ouch! The ultimate insult.

Yeah, I liked Isabelle.

guybrush122 · 03-12-2005, 06:57 AM

My beef is with DOTT. I'm sorry, I just don't get what everyone likes about it. To me it's boring, and poorly executed, and just not funny. Don't get me wrong: I love funny adventure games. The MI series are some of my favorites, and GF as a sort of comedy/drama thing was just amazing. But, seriously, DOTT? I chuckled once or twice. And then I got frustrated because, please, I hated all the characters. Bernard has nothing to like, nor does Sally, or anybody in the game. They're just annoying. In my own personal land, it rates at a (3/5), and that's for consideration that so many people love it.

Okay, you guys can stone me now.

Also, I'd have given The Dig a higher score. Like a 3.5/5 or maybe even a 4/5. Sure, the puzzles were difficult and yes, the graphics weren't breathtaking, but a 3/5? The game was better than a 3/5.

My only real two beefs. That and the comment about GF's soundtrack, as mentioned before.

So, three beefs.

And a fanatical devotion to the pope.

(Nooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

Wormsie · 03-12-2005, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guybrush122

Bernard has nothing to like, nor does Sally, or anybody in the game.

...Sally?

The Seed · 03-12-2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guybrush122

My beef is with DOTT. I'm sorry, I just don't get what everyone likes about it. To me it's boring, and poorly executed, and just not funny.

Ok, you think it's boring and not funny, that's fine, it's you're personal opinion, but do you actually have any reasons to back up why you think it's "poorly executed"?

SakSquash · 03-12-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Seed

Ok, you think it's boring and not funny, that's fine, it's you're personal opinion, but do you actually have any reasons to back up why you think it's "poorly executed"?

Wouldn't a comedy game that was unfunny and boring be the reasons that backup his claim of it being "pooly executed?"

AGA · 03-14-2005, 02:59 AM

Tee hee. You like The Dig, but don't see what the fuss is about Day of the Tentacle. You, sir, are a loon.

View Poll Results: What Review Do You Have the Most Beef With?
Broken Sword II: The Smoking Mirror (2 out of 5)	19	35.85%
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (2 out of 5)	8	15.09%
King's Quest 8: Mask Of Eternity (2 1/2 out of 5)	1	1.89%
Normality (2 1/2 out of 5)	0	0%
Phantasmagoria (1 1/2 out of 5)	4	7.55%
Toonstruck (2 1/2 out of 5)	5	9.43%
Uru: Ages Beyond Myst (2 1/2 out of 5)	3	5.66%
Other (Please State)	13	24.53%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

03-03-2005, 11:53 AM	#42
EasilyConfused Curiouser and curiouser Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cambridge, MA Posts: 803	I really don't understand the purpose of this thread. It seems to me the thread could be about two things. First of all, people could be simply be asking which games others liked more or less than AG's reviewers did. That's all well and good . . . but we talk about what games we like and dislike all the time, and it's clear there are a ton of games (er, actually, most of them really ) about which many of us disagree. Second, the thread could be implying (as many people seem to be, constantly and erroneously) that there is some OBJECTIVE standard out there for evaluating games. There is no such thing. There are no objective standards in ANY kind of reviewing. There are degrees of objectivity. AG I think bends over backwards to eliminate bias, and the reviewers do their darndest to give an overall, comprehensive, complete and fair account of a game. That's why I think this is the best adventure site on the web and that's why I read these reviews. At the end of the day, though, a review is the (hopefully thoughtful, considered) opinion of one gamer who played it, and the reader should be aware of that. The scores are similarly limiting--there are only 11 potential grades, after all--if we're counting zero stars as a possibility. As for whether game X "deserves" the same score as game Y--that question doesn't really make sense to me. Could you say whether Citizen Kane, The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, and Casablanca all "deserve" the same rating as films, even if they got the same number of stars at a film fan site or in a video guide? They appeal to different people with different tastes in different moods. I'm not saying you can't make any comparisons, but that these comparisons will necessarily be general trends that are matters of taste and opinion rather than anything clear-cut and inarguable. So I don't have a beef with any review. All the reviews I've read seem fair and legitimate to me, even if I disagree with them. I think they've all been done in good faith, and I've never seen a single hatchet job on this site. I hope things stay that way. Share Share this post on Twitter Last edited by EasilyConfused; 03-03-2005 at 12:36 PM.

03-03-2005, 12:06 PM	#43
Maquisard Citizen of Bizarro World Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Htrae Posts: 4,219	The thing is, AG isn't the only place with reviews. While I mostly trust their judgement, you should check out some other sites besides AG to get an idea of an "average" grade for a game. I think this is actually why they regularly link to game reviews on other websites. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ By no rocket’s blue shade am no shells dead down there, Gave no proof all day long that the flag was unwhere! No say does am spar-strangled shroud hang limply! Under land of no free! Am us home coward-leeee! ~Excerpt from the Bizarro Anthem Last edited by Maquisard; 03-03-2005 at 12:13 PM.

03-03-2005, 12:54 PM	#44
VoodooFX Grumpy & bitter man Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Slovenia Posts: 1,171	While I disagree with some of the grades, I tend not to complain about it. I don't give a damn about scores, numbers, percents, stars, could be apples for all I care, it's all the same to me. What I value in a good review are clearly written positive and negative aspects of the game. I want to know, what bothered the reviewer, so I can compare his/hers views with mine. Lets take Indy and the Last Crusade for example... reviewer wrote she hated the fighting sequences... ok, I don't mind those, one less negative point for the game in my eyes. Don't like direct controls of Grim? I have no problems with them. Don't like dark and twisted humor of Sam & Max? I laugh my a** off with these guys. Like the timed sequences? Well I hate them, and no matter hard you try to put them in good light for me, I'll still hate them. So you see, reviews will never be completely objective, but they can be qualitly written nevertheless. And I for one, think they are just that. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ We may have days, we may have hours, but sooner or later we all push up flowers.

03-04-2005, 03:14 PM	#47
MDMaster Evil Webmaster Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,037	When people start answering to posts in 'sections', it's time to change topic... Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Pushed back to square Now that you've kneed her In the throat So there you go

03-10-2005, 05:57 PM	#50
SakSquash Banned User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Paltz...for now... Posts: 6,177	I can't believe this is still going! Share Share this post on Twitter

03-10-2005, 11:38 PM	#51
bigjko El Luchador Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 1,629	It's pretty silly discussing this, because it's just one reviewer's opinion, and nobody's going to change it. What matters is the content of the review, not the score. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Use Verb On Noun - Adventure game inspired illustrations

03-11-2005, 03:12 AM	#52
Terabin Tell me This is It Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 538	The numbers mean a great deal to me having experience with statistics in the past. In many ways, the score a game gets frames the way I read the actual review. On perhaps a slight side note, One of the most frustrating things I experience with reviews comes while reading reviews in which the written portion did not seem to line up with the rating given. For example, a music reviewer would praise an album and then give it three out of five stars. Share Share this post on Twitter

03-11-2005, 04:44 AM	#53
bigjko El Luchador Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 1,629	And that's why ratings are evil and should be abandoned completely. They don't fudgestickin' matter, since everyone has individual tastes, and might like some of the stuff that is bashed in the review, and therefore the only important thing about reviews is the written text. There. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Use Verb On Noun - Adventure game inspired illustrations

03-12-2005, 01:50 AM	#55
Fienepien Guest Posts: n/a	Isabelle got half a star because it had "pretty colors". Ouch! The ultimate insult. Yeah, I liked Isabelle. Share Share this post on Twitter

03-12-2005, 06:57 AM	#56
guybrush122 some may call me tofu Join Date: May 2004 Location: new york Posts: 82	My beef is with DOTT. I'm sorry, I just don't get what everyone likes about it. To me it's boring, and poorly executed, and just not funny. Don't get me wrong: I love funny adventure games. The MI series are some of my favorites, and GF as a sort of comedy/drama thing was just amazing. But, seriously, DOTT? I chuckled once or twice. And then I got frustrated because, please, I hated all the characters. Bernard has nothing to like, nor does Sally, or anybody in the game. They're just annoying. In my own personal land, it rates at a (3/5), and that's for consideration that so many people love it. Okay, you guys can stone me now. Also, I'd have given The Dig a higher score. Like a 3.5/5 or maybe even a 4/5. Sure, the puzzles were difficult and yes, the graphics weren't breathtaking, but a 3/5? The game was better than a 3/5. My only real two beefs. That and the comment about GF's soundtrack, as mentioned before. So, three beefs. And a fanatical devotion to the pope. (Nooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!) Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ It's amazing how a touch of human remains can really brighten up a place.

03-14-2005, 02:59 AM	#60
AGA AdventureGameAficionado Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Cardiff, Wales Posts: 1,968	Tee hee. You like The Dig, but don't see what the fuss is about Day of the Tentacle. You, sir, are a loon. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Berian Williams - [SIZE=1]Visit agagames.com for free adventure games!

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