[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Actually, just to set the record straight, there have been complaints made to me. So, um... yeah.

What kind exactly?

[Jackal]

The kind that said how annoying it was that so many threads were devolving into the same sexual banter.

[Zanthia]

people talk about what bothers them

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Jackal

The kind that said how annoying it was that so many threads were devolving into the same sexual banter.

About threads in Chit Chat, too?

[Jackal]

Nothing that specific. Just comments to the effect that the sex chatter is getting out of hand. I doubt that would be anyone's impression if it was kept in Chit Chat, so no problems there. If that's not enough, then I suggest getting a room.

[Wormsie]

Look, I believe the fact anyone is complaining is because we have more chit chat all in all. There isn't much to talk about regarding adventure games is there? And I think the discussion is staying pretty well on-topic in general. It's just an illusion.

[Jackal]

No one wants to play the heavy, but looks like I'm caught in bad cop role. 8-) Very well.

First of all, it's not for anyone to decide WHAT people might have to say about adventure games. But it's certain that if not given the chance, no one WILL say anything. And if everyone is seeing the same "illusion", then there's really no distinction between that and reality, is there? If public perception is that our Site Feedback and Adventure threads all turn into childish sex talk, then that's what matters, as that's what impacts on what people contribute (or more to the point, don't contribute) as a result.

Beyond that, there's a big difference between threads wandering off-topic in natural ways, and threads being directed off topic by the same group of people with the same discussion for the same reason over and over. One is conversation; the other is just disruption. Add to that the fact that some find the content distasteful, and you end up with threads that are alienating far more people than the inside few they're amusing. This really isn't rocket science.

[Wormsie]

(Warning, sex talk.)

Originally Posted by Jackal

I doubt that would be anyone's impression if it was kept in Chit Chat, so no problems there.

Originally Posted by Jackal

If public perception is that our Site Feedback and Adventure threads all turn into childish sex talk, then that's what matters, as that's what impacts on what people contribute (or more to the point, don't contribute) as a result.

OK, let's see a few recent threads from Adventure -category, picked at random. (I also picked all those threads that I thought might have gone badly off-topic.)

The Last Express is really quite clever - no sex talk.

Reason for playing adventure games - no sex talk.

What Adventure Game Would You Like To See As A Film? - no sex talk.

Gabriel Knight Games - no sex talk.

'True' adventure games for the Ps2? - no sex talk.

A game like Gabriel Knight 3? - no sex talk.

Mobile Adventure Games - no sex talk.

Relatives in the Past? - talk about 100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja's avatar. Maybe that qualifies as childish sex talk?

Do adventure games generally have lower replayability value than other games? - no sex talk.

"Still Life: almost cinematic (warning: contains nitpicking) - I called Trep a "hunnypie" and commented on the looks of the boy in the screenshot. That's not too bad, is it?!

"Voodoo Kid - completely off-topic, sex talk.

"Half Life 2 as an adventure game - no sex talk.

Is Myst really an Adventure game? - goes slightly off-topic in the end, but nothing explicit.

Replayability issue - slightly off-topic in the end, but no sex talk.

"Should I Play the Monkey Island Games in Order? - no sex talk.

New Dreamfall Goodies! - I quote Ragnar Tornquist saying "more sex, less swearing". That doesn't qualify as sex talk.

That's sixteen threads, one of them is off topic because of childish sex talk. So yeah, the problem is huge, I can clearly see that all our Adventure discussion is being controlled by nymphomaniacs.

In Chit Chat there is lots of childish sex talk, though, and that's what really actually bothers people. Also, a lot of it some of it is about gays as this forum has active gay and gay-positive members, so people are bound to pay more attention to it. However, as they say in high school biology books, this is just a phase and it will pass.

[BoyToy]

Of course, everybody has their own taste [some find cops very attractive, for instance] and might find different things entertaining or interesting. Every individual has their own likes and dislikes.

Thus, I like to respect others' opinions, regardless whether I agree or not.

Since a forum is all about communication, I agree to large parts of what you said, Jackal.
However, for academical reasons, it should be noted that your agrumentation works in both ways: One man's disruption is another man's communication - and vice versa.

A large community can only work with a certain level of mutual tolerance and respect. And, whereever one gets carried away, cops are welcome to step in.


So... do we actually have a problem after all?


EDIT: I don't have to mention, that I would be badly missing the usual suspects' flirting...?!

__________________
Grow up! Be childish!

[Wormsie]

I do admit that in this thread my post was out of line.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

However, as they say in high school biology books, this is just a phase and it will pass.

Which is what I was hoping, which is why I've never once said anything until now. I wasn't even planning on this conversation dragging out. But to answer this claim, I see the opposite happening - building instead of passing, which is why I jumped in.

I'll take your word for the threads in Adventure. You didn't include Site Feedback, however, which would certainly yield more than 1 in 16. Or General, which I was lumping in with Adventure.

Anyway, you can support your argument how you like, but frankly, that doesn't change the fact that public perception is what it is. Yes, of course it's largely reinforced by Chit Chat, but by no means confined to it.

I'm not telling anyone to stop, not singling anyone out, and sure as hell not telling anyone not to have fun. I'm simply pointing out the effect it has when juvenile behaviour goes overboard, and trying to remind people that we're a community, not a clique, and that we should probably show at least a bit of respect to people with other wishes. Like I said, I'm finding it hard to see the weakness in this reasoning.

This whole argument might make SOME sense if the option was not having anywhere for these kinds of threads at all. But since there IS, I think the question is why anyone feels the need to defend a behaviour that at best causes conflict for other members. Seems like pointless self-indulgence to me.

And BoyToy, no, it's not a problem so much as it's an issue. Since it's becoming more prevalent, I'm just addressing it.

Now, everyone go back to Chit Chat and resume flirting so I can get other things done today.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Jackal

I'm simply pointing out the effect it has when juvenile behaviour goes overboard, and trying to remind people that we're a community, not a clique, and that we should probably show at least a bit of respect to people with other wishes.

Hoo boy. When I joined a few years ago I posted for MONTHS before I got the hang of all the off-topic discussion here and got any recognition from other members. It's actually a lot easier these days. This forum has always been a very, VERY tight clique, and that's why it's no wonder we talk about things that have nothing to do with adventure games. You're right, though, perhaps I've forgotten that this isn't just a playing field for me and my friends... But pinkgothic and BoyToy, or two most recent active members don't seem to mind.

General gaming-forum doesn't have lots of sex talk. There are two or three sex-talk threads in Site feedback.

Also, I still think that that feedback was from some Idle Thumbs staff member. They're evil over there.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Jackal

This whole argument might make SOME sense if the option was not having anywhere for these kinds of threads at all. But since there IS, I think the question is why anyone feels the need to defend a behaviour that at best causes conflict for other members.

Because I think those people who have a problem with this are not really frustrated by the sex talk, but a lack of other threads. They might also be frustrated by this forum in general - like Kingz who didn't want to read millions of threads about Monkey Island or Gabriel Knight. Most of the threads are NOT "dragged off topic", or if they are, they usually have at least some initial reason for it to happen. This is not what your posts said at all, and that's why I replied. The problematic threads have been about certain members of the community or the community in general, in which case it's no wonder the active members - to whom this website is more than just a place where you talk about adventure games occasionally - post more and talk the way they talk anyway. And why should anyone not interested in that stuff read it anyway (for example the thread about Mattsius leaving).

Anyway, point taken, though those remarks of yours were a bit unnecessary.

[AGA]

The sex-talk annoys me very much.

If you want to do it in Chit-Chat, that's cool, since I rarely ever visit there, and it is for off-topic things after all. However having a thread taken off-topic within a few posts by deadworm and Trep is very irritating. I go to the Site Feedback section to read site feedback, Adventure to read about adventure games, Underground [which you mostly seem to leave alone, thank God] etc, etc...

Even if you do think you're bringing some activity to the threads, why even bother? There are better things to do than make posts that don't really need to be made.

[Jackal]

I haven't insulted anyone here, so whatever that is referring to, get over it. If what you mean is that I'm going out of my way to make my criticism of certain behaviours less offensive, then guilty as charged.

You want to keep arguing what other people SHOULD think, or what they have a right to think, feel free. I'm simply talking about what IS, and how to accommodate everyone as best as possible. Your speculation about what it is that bothers people is just plain wrong, at least from the comments made to me (none of which were at all Thumb-related )

BoyToy talked about mutual respect and tolerance, and I'm just saying that yes, it would be nice if it were mutual, not all expected from one side. Like I said, I'm not gonna tell people what they can and can't say, or where, so your problem isn't with me. I'm just trying to explain it, since you seem unwilling to acknowledge that others may have legitimate concerns.

I doubt there's anything else I can say to make the matter any more clear, so I'll just finish (my part; others are free to keep debating) by repeating what Marek said:

I just wanted to remind everyone that we still prefer off-topic stuff to be posted in Chit Chat.

[Wormsie]

*thinks of starting a thread called "Sex and sexuality in adventure games" but doesn't*

[gillyruless]

Although I can see Jack and AGA's point and do acknowledge that it is the official forum policy to have the off-topic discussions limited to the Chit-Chat forum, it bothers me that the complaint was made specifically regarding "the childish sex talk". I have seen examples of threads that were led off-topic by many different reasons, many other than "the childish sex talk". It is very disapointing that the complaint was made regarding only a specific topic and a select group of people (which obviously includes me) when threads being led off-topic is a part of life at any internet-based communication venue. I'm not sure whether it is fair for me to do so but I do have to wonder the complaint was caused merely by the fact that the too much of off-topic discussion is being introduced.

I clearly understand that not every one wants to be subjected to the sex talk or any other off-topic discussions so I for one will try to abide by the forum policies and other member's wishes better in the future. Having said that, I can't help feeling a bit disapointed by the fact that a little bit of color has been taken away from the community that I have grown to dearly love to be a part of.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Jackal

I'm simply talking about what IS

Didn't I show that at least Adventure -discussion is not taken off topic? Yet you claim that this happens too often. Also, any topic that in any way mentions sex and is not in Chit-Chat is regarded as "off-topic", when actually these threads have, for example, been about people notorious for their innuendos. E.g. the thread about Mattsius leaving. Maybe those threads could be moved to Chit-Chat to mark them as sexually explicit?

Then again, it might be that people see everything I write as a sexual innuendo. After what AGA said I wouldn't be at all surprised.

EDIT: Sorry, that link was WAY off.

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

Anyway, point taken, though those remarks of yours were a bit unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Jackal

I haven't insulted anyone here, so whatever that is referring to, get over it.

I'm not 100% sure whether that's what Deadworm was referring to, but I assume attributing the sex-talk 'childish' or 'juvenile' might get perceived as a negative subtext by a lot of people.
But that's, ultimately, a matter of subjective taste. And thus shouldn't be a reason to fight about it, in my opinion.
You can't argue about taste after all (though it can be fun to do so).

Personally, I don't find the sex-talk/allusions childish. At least not per sé. Certainly sometimes it can become childish - as any jokingly made comment might be, regardless of whether it's got sexual reference or not. And even than: there's nothing bad about childish behaviour, is it?
I mean after all, playing is childish per sé. And we're all here, cause we like to play (adventure games), aren't we?

Furthermore, I personally find looking away from sexual topics and excluding them from my communication (regardless of whether it's funny, silly, serious, or whater) would be pretty immature behaviour. But that's just my point of view. And like I said, I respect other opinons.

[Wormsie]

EDIT: Sorry, the link in my previous post was way off...