[MoriartyL]

After the first three paragraphs of hyperbole and build-up, I must say I was disappointed to hear what the game actually was. From the way you wrote the beginning I was expecting a natural leap forward for adventures, not a little one-time-only gimmick. And original?- how do you figure? There have been games where you play as ghosts before, and there have been games where the main character is not the character you're controlling. So these guys put the two together for some reason. (I'm not convinced this is such an obvious move.) Where's the "ingenious premise"? Where's the "real originality"?

To the game's credit, it does sound like it could be pretty fun. Maybe if you hadn't written it up like this I'd expect less and be more impressed.

[Kurufinwe]

While not as extreme as MoriartyL, I must say I'm also still not sure quite what to make of it. I mean, it sounds a bit like Oh no! More lemmings with a story, doesn't it? The plot and premise are definitely intriguing, but I'm not sure the gameplay looks all that exciting for the moment. Well, wait I see, I guess.

(Actually, I'm saying exactly the opposite of Mory. Oh well.)

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

I was expecting a natural leap forward for adventures, not a little one-time-only gimmick.

If you were expecting that, then I find it hard to even believe you READ the first three paragraphs. Pretty much the only "leaps forward" in gaming are technological in nature. The most innovative games in the past have NOT influenced their genres (either adventure or any other) simply because they're innovative. I find it comical (well, to an extent... mostly annoying) how obsessed people are with what impact a game will have on the genre's evolution, rather than just treating it like what it is - one game.

And original?- how do you figure? There have been games where you play as ghosts before, and there have been games where the main character is not the character you're controlling.

I started answering this, but instead of engaging in pointless theoretical debates, feel free to list what games Experience112 reminds you of. Then there will be something to talk about. As for ghosts, I don't know what you're talking about. The game has nothing to do with ghosts.

To the game's credit, it does sound like it could be pretty fun. Maybe if you hadn't written it up like this I'd expect less and be more impressed.

Sounds to me like your expectations are all your own.

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

I mean, it sounds a bit like Oh no! More lemmings with a story, doesn't it? The plot and premise are definitely intriguing, but I'm not sure the gameplay looks all that exciting for the moment.

I guess it does! Except that being human is much different than being a lemming, and that's a vital part of the game. And it's maybe just a bit more complex. And yes, it could all break down on a practical level. I expect that, like In Memoriam, this will be a love it or hate it type of game. But for now I'm still digging the concept.

[Jackal]

Oh, and for the record, there's no hyperbole at all in the preview.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Jackal

I started answering this, but instead of engaging in pointless theoretical debates, feel free to list what games Experience112 reminds you of. Then there will be something to talk about.

It reminds me of Lifeline, only without voice recognition.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Jackal

If you were expecting that, then I find it hard to even believe you READ the first three paragraphs. Pretty much the only "leaps forward" in gaming are technological in nature. The most innovative games in the past have NOT influenced their genres (either adventure or any other) simply because they're innovative. I find it comical (well, to an extent... mostly annoying) how obsessed people are with what impact a game will have on the genre's evolution, rather than just treating it like what it is - one game.

I'm sorry, but when you write things like "To understand Experience112, forget much of what you know about adventures and let's start over from scratch.", what exactly am I supposed to expect? Let me be clear- I'm not criticizing the game, which I still know next to nothing about, I'm criticizing your writing. In your very first sentence, you babbled: "When it comes to game design, every once in a long while an idea comes along that's so brilliant in its elegance and simplicity that it's a miracle no one's thought of it before." Such obvious moves are always significant steps forward. Always. Otherwise, it's too niche a concept for anyone to have thought of it. And I had a few more paragraphs for the thought to settle in my mind that this was, in fact, the shining hope for adventures, because all you gave me to go on was this sort of rhetoric.

I started answering this, but instead of engaging in pointless theoretical debates, feel free to list what games Experience112 reminds you of. Then there will be something to talk about. As for ghosts, I don't know what you're talking about. The game has nothing to do with ghosts.

In that case, you did not just oversell the game- you completely misrepresented it. Here is what, at long last, you tell us about the game itself (as opposed to your reaction):

As the game opens, players find themselves in the boat's operations room facing a highly advanced panel of controls and surveillance monitors. The player has no onscreen avatar, but that doesn't mean it's a first-person game. ... Helpless but clearly NOT alone, she needs your assistance to escape her floating prison. And so begins a shared adventure that you experience through her, while personally remaining in your detached position.

So you're there, but you have no avatar. Apparently you're some kind of ghost who must manipulate the game indirectly. (The ambiguous writing style is clearly intended to imply an ambiguous sort of reality, and you took it for granted that we'd understand it was a ghost you were playing because how else could you have a character without an avatar?) This reminds me of the FPS Geist. You reinforce this by saying you're in a detached position. And then you elaborate by saying that this spirit you're playing cannot move around (since he has no body) but is linked to all the machinery. The game apparently consists of puzzles where you tell the main character (the woman) what to do, much like (as insane_cobra pointed out) Lifeline. (I didn't remember the name, but I remembered reading a review.)

Now that you point out that there are no ghosts, I see I misinterpreted what you wrote by taking the only possible interpretation, which was not what you intended. So now I don't see any interpretations left. What the heck are you talking about?

Sounds to me like your expectations are all your own.

No, now I have no expectations at all, because I realize that I know exactly as much about the game as before I read your preview- nothing at all.

Oh, and for the record, there's no hyperbole at all in the preview.

Uh huh. It sure sounds like hyperbole.

[Jackal]

Moriarty, first of all, you obviously don't know what hyperbole means, so either stop using it or go look up the definition.

Such obvious moves are always significant steps forward. Always. Otherwise, it's too niche a concept for anyone to have thought of it.

See, this is why it's your fundamental expectations causing all your own problems (and, unfortunately, now mine). Give me another Bad Mojo or Bad Day at the Midway any day - games that were like (pretty much) nothing ever before or after. The fewer developers that jump on an idea and drive it into the ground afterwards, the better. Feel free to see that as a failing if you like, but I neither share it nor agree with it.

About my writing, by all means feel free to criticize it, but at least show some understanding of it first. I made it perfectly clear that the developers were intent on doing something new and interesting for THEIR game, not to herald in a whole new wave of evolution. I neither pitched it nor misrepresented it as something other than that. That's what you seem intent on ignoring for inexplicable reasons. If that's not enough for you, it really doesn't concern me, as it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

And I'm afraid I can't be bothered taking any responsibility for your misinterpretation of "no onscreen avatar". You conveniently left out the "onscreen" part in your attempt to undermine it, but that just comes off as lame. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

Originally Posted by Insane_cobra

It reminds me of Lifeline, only without voice recognition.

Interesting. I'd never heard of that game before. Yep, definite similarities there, although I think the (in)ability to communicate verbally requires a pretty fundamental change in gameplay. But definitely the overall premise is similar. Also sounds like they couldn't really pull it off, so hopefully this game fares better in that regard.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Jackal

MoriartyL, first of all, you obviously don't know what hyperbole means, so either stop using it or go look up the definition.

Okay, I looked it up, and I still don't see how it doesn't apply, but I'll stop using it.


I apologize for the antagonism. I see that it was unwarranted because, as you have made clear, it is hinged on the fact that I don't understand from what you wrote even the basic premise of the game. Let me try this again.

And I'm afraid I can't be bothered taking any responsibility for your misinterpretation of "no onscreen avatar". You conveniently left out the "onscreen" part in your attempt to undermine it, but that just comes off as lame. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I did not take the word "onscreen" out of the quote, and I don't see the relevance of the word in this context. An avatar is how you see your character. If it's not there, then either the character is not there or you're seeing the game through a first-person perspective. Right?- Or am I missing something here? Now, you say that there's no avatar. (No onscreen avatar, for whatever difference that makes.) So it's first-person - But you say it isn't. So the character isn't there - But you say he is. So the character is invisible (a ghost), and he is there, and it's not first-person - That's the only way I see of looking at it. That's obviously not what you meant, which leaves me without any clue of what you're talking about.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Also sounds like they couldn't really pull it off, so hopefully this game fares better in that regard.

Yeah, if they concentrate on only one aspect, they have better chances of nailing it.

I still believe Lifeline is a very important game precisely because of its pioneering work in voice recognition. This whole implicit control shtick is a neat idea, but voice recognition could provide us with a natural dialogue interface for all games, once it's perfected.

[mariusmal]

im sorry to interrupt your debate but i just want to say that i consider the concept original when connected to a game (feel free to point to me a game that has this concept because i havent played all games in the world) but i seem to recall a movie i once saw that had something like this.

and jackal. dont worry about it. everyone is a critic.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by mariusmal

feel free to point to me a game that has this concept because i havent played all games in the world

That's fine, but you could've at lest read all the posts in this thread.

Again, Lifeline is pretty much identical in concept.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

If it's not there, then either the character is not there or you're seeing the game through a first-person perspective. Right?- Or am I missing something here? Now, you say that there's no avatar. (No onscreen avatar, for whatever difference that makes.) So it's first-person - But you say it isn't. So the character isn't there - But you say he is. So the character is invisible (a ghost), and he is there, and it's not first-person - That's the only way I see of looking at it. That's obviously not what you meant, which leaves me without any clue of what you're talking about.

This is precisely why I said one needs to throw out conventional ways of thinking. It's not simply either/or like what we're used to. Yes, technically you can say that Experience112 is in first-person, since you "play" a character you can't see. But since you're actually "experiencing" the game voyeuristically, then it plays out more like a third-person game with an onscreen avatar you don't directly control. Is the game about you sitting in a little room pressing buttons and moving knobs, or is it about a woman moving continuously through a series of obstacles? It's both. That's part of what makes the game unique.

And just so the other matter is cleared up, hyperbole means to exaggerate so much that it's not intended to be taken literally. Had I called Experience112 the best game ever, that would be hyperbole (because Christmas Quest is obviously the best game ever). Saying it's built on a simple, ingenious premise is precisely what I mean. The fact that you disagree doesn't make it hyperbole.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

I still believe Lifeline is a very important game precisely because of its pioneering work in voice recognition. This whole implicit control shtick is a neat idea, but voice recognition could provide us with a natural dialogue interface for all games, once it's perfected.

Absolutely. It's baffling that voice recognition is so under-utilized. Even if it's just integrated in very basic ways at first, it would be such a natural extension of the player. I don't get the lack of progress made in that area. (Mind you, I'm hoping Phoenix Wright doesn't represent the current state of voice technology!)

Originally Posted by mariusmal

im sorry to interrupt your debate but i just want to say that i consider the concept original when connected to a game (feel free to point to me a game that has this concept because i havent played all games in the world) but i seem to recall a movie i once saw that had something like this.

and jackal. dont worry about it. everyone is a critic.

Well, Lifeline certainly seems to have tried some of the same things, so perhaps Experience112 isn't the first to use the general concept. But there do seem to be enough differences to still qualify as an original idea. Or maybe an original twist on an existing idea (which is really all any innovation is).

And I don't sweat the criticism. Comes with the territory any time you put something out publicly. But I'll always argue when I'm being criticized for not saying something I clearly did.

[mariusmal]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

That's fine, but you could've at lest read all the posts in this thread.

Again, Lifeline is pretty much identical in concept.

i did read all the posts.. but like jackal said. it still qualifies for an original concept despite some resemblances with lifeline

Originally Posted by Jackal

And I don't sweat the criticism. Comes with the territory any time you put something out publicly. But I'll always argue when I'm being criticized for not saying something I clearly did.

yes. but sometimes ppl just like to bash us when we materialize in the forums. example: i wrote an article for bszone and for i what i saw in some forums ppl liked my article.. and when i showed up in the forum... i started to get a "not so nice" welcome.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by mariusmal

i did read all the posts.. but like jackal said. it still qualifies for an original concept despite some resemblances with lifeline

No, it may be (and probably will be) fairly original in execution, but the basic concept is exactly the same as in Lifeline. That's not a bad thing and maybe it's just a coincidence, but credit has to be given where credit is due.

Likewise, it's not a problem that Jack didn't know about it. Like you said, nobody can know everything, but let's not be stubborn here.

[MoriartyL]

Okay, now I get it. It could be interesting. One thing I don't understand, though: You say they're devoted to immersion, and yet you're second-guessing who your character is the whole time? That sounds to me like an immersion-breaker.

[Once A Villain]

Don't get me wrong, the game sounds like a blast. However, it also sounds very much like an OLD game (and therefore, an old idea). It's a little game called Critical Path that came out in 1993. Heavily flawed, sure, but it has the same idea behind it. Here's an excerpt from a review I wrote of the game:

"You discover a control room with monitors, controls, and General Minh's very own notebook. It is from here that you must guide a woman named Kat through Minh's base. You have to explore Minh's notebook to decipher clues and discover codes which can save Kat from various things. You can activate machine guns to mow down enemies, stop conveyor belts, use various traps, etc...all by pushing a few keys.

Actually, as I stated, the ideas in Critical Path aren't bad. You'll really feel like you're in a control room where you are responsible for a person's life."


Here is another description of Critical Path from Wikipedia:

"...the player plays an anonymous soldier confined to a control room of sorts. The gameplay consists of the player using the available controls to aid Kat on her escape from the island on which both the characters are trapped. If successful, the player can guide, protect, and assist Kat to the player's location, in their bid to escape the island."


That, to me at least, sounds very similar to Jack Allin's description of Experience112:

"As the game opens, players find themselves in the boat's operations room facing a highly advanced panel of controls and surveillance monitors. The player has no onscreen avatar, but that doesn't mean it's a first-person game. I told you to forget what you knew about adventures. Instead, you see a woman on the screen in front of you, awaking in one of the cabins. With intravenous tubes in her arms, she is clearly ill, but you'll watch her discover a letter and then begin a desperate attempt to escape her locked room. Helpless but clearly NOT alone, she needs your assistance to escape her floating prison. And so begins a shared adventure that you experience through her, while personally remaining in your detached position.

Since you're unable to move about, what you have at your disposal is a wide array of sophisticated technology. Using a simple point and click interface to manipulate the onscreen display (though optional direct control methods are introduced for various tasks), you'll need to employ this equipment strategically to overcome the many environmental and human challenges facing the woman..."


I'm not saying the game won't be far better, more advanced, and give the player more to do than Critical Path did, it has been 13 years after all, but I don't think this game warrants comments like this...

"When it comes to game design, every once in a long while an idea comes along that's so brilliant in its elegance and simplicity that it's a miracle no one's thought of it before. Or maybe it has been thought of before, but rejected in an industry that typically recoils from innovation. I mean real originality, not the technological improvements we usually pass off as progress."

[Jackal]

Okay, so there's another one that 's similar. But let's be clear about one thing. That paragraph you quoted does NOT (purposely does not, despite people's assumptions) say that Experience112 was the first time the concept had been explored. Admittedly, I thought it was the first, but I've been around games long enough to know that there are lots of obscure titles that have done things I don't know about. That paragraph was merely a comment on the state of the industry.

The only thing I said about Experience112 specifically was that it's built on an ingenious premise. Which it is. The fact that one or two other games have also been built on a similar premise in 13 years doesn't change that. Those games were ALSO built on an ingenious premise. Go beyond games, and I'm sure the idea has been used in books, movies, whatever. It's hard to pinpoint what deserves the title of "innovative" when everything is based on pre-existing ideas.

[Once A Villain]

I don't deny that Experience112 sounds like it will be the best of these games, by the way. Heh.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Jackal

The only thing I said about Experience112 specifically was that it's built on an ingenious premise. Which it is. The fact that one or two other games have also been built on a similar premise in 13 years doesn't change that.

Sure, if you only take the control room variety in consideration, but there are many games that give you only implicit control over the actions of your avatar (or some other on-screen entity). Kurufinwe already mentioned Lemmings, but most god games are also like that, Black & White included. Tamagothchi-like games, too. Several days ago I played Pac-Man 2 for SNES which is also like that, Pac-Man (of the leggy variety) is walking down the street and you need to help him overcome various obstacles. It's also the very principle behind third person point & click adventures - you're not really controlling the protagonist, you're telling him what to do and then watching the appropriate animation play out. Critical Path, Lifeline and Experience 112 just take that concept a little further.

Like I said already, I think it's a neat and rather fresh idea (btw, co-op mode anyone?), but I can understand why people are not as excited as you seem to be.

[Jackal]

I don't expect everyone to be excited about it, even if they DO think it's totally new and unique. It just won't be everyone's idea of a good time. I can't think of a single existing game that interests everyone, so I don't expect this to be the first. But nor will I be less enthused about it just because others aren't. I actually AM a little surprised at the relative apathy, though. People around here spend so much time bitching about the lack of innovation in the genre, and when someone finally tries something different (at least, different to probably 95+% of gamers), it gets a "yawn, something similar was tried 10 years ago"? Go figger. Maybe that's partly why more developers (and publishers) don't bother.

The fact that it shares fundamental similarities to things from other genres is really rather meaningless to me. Majesty did it with RTS games, too, and was lauded for it at the time. But since they're entirely different applications, I don't see how one has anything to do with another except on an abstract level.