[avatar_58]

Interesting....this has to be THE first preview that has ever swayed me to consider trying a game. Daemonica sounds VERY similar to the type of RPG that I like...more story and event driven rather than just killing everything.

My fav game of all time is Ultima VII. I mean lets face it, the combat isn't the main focus of that game either. The reason I love it is the story and questing parts are much like an adventure game. Hell....the way I play it I barely even enter combat unless I have to. Even then you can run away most times. I've heard Planescape Torment is much like this as well, but I've yet to play through it.

So now my interest it up....I'm curious as to how good the story and quests are in this game. If they are sub-par then it might not be worth it, but if its worth a look I really hope an english demo surfaces..

[Ninth]

Interesting indeed.
A RPG without many fights is right up my alley.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Interesting indeed.
A RPG without many fights is right up my alley.

I don't mind fights myself, its just that I would prefer if the main focus wasn't on just "leveling up" and finding the next person to slice in two. Some games know how to balance the two into a great experience (*cough* Quest for Glory *cough*) but others end up becoming nothing but finding the best battle strategies.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

but others end up becoming nothing but finding the best battle strategies.

I guess you're thinking about Guild Wars?

I just don't really like fighting in RPGs, unless it's turn-based, and not too intensive.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I guess you're thinking about Guild Wars?

Nope. I consider Guild Wars to be a hack-n-slash game in the same vein as diablo. Yes, I don't consider Diablo to be an true RPG.....I hope that doesn't alarm anyone.

Its just that so many console RPGs and even some of the D&D ones are waay too reliant on one's stats and how many hours you are willing to sink into the game. Its the same reason I haven't found one MMO game I like. I prefer more substance to my RPGs.

Don't get me wrong, I like Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger, but the RPGs I prefer spend less time worrying about what level I am and more about "Where am I going to find this" or "How do I solve this wierd puzzle?". Basically you could say I would rather more RPGs include more adventure elements.

[Jackal]

Wait, wait... let's be clear... Daemonica isn't just an RPG without fights. It's an RPG without any intrinsic roleplaying elements at all. No stats, no upgrades, no buying weapons and armour, none of that stuff. When you take away all of that, what you're left with is really an adventure. A fairly basic one, a fairly simple one, but an adventure nonetheless.

I don't want to be too outspoken in my impressions at this stage, because there may yet be some enhancements before final release. And we'll review it formally when the game comes out. But it's safe to say that Daemonica won't be dazzling anyone with quality. And yet, I just can't help get behind games that march to the beat of their own drummer. I wouldn't call this game "innovative" exactly, but I honestly can't think of any, or many, games like it. So I don't want to see it falling through the cracks without at least getting some attention.

[Gonchi]

Adventure/RPG hybrids have always interested me ever since the Quest for Glory days. Unfortunately, besides BloodNet, all other games like this I’ve played have turned out rather poor.

I’ll be keeping my eye Daemonica.

[Jackal]

This one isn't really a hybrid, though, apart from the handful of (easy) fights. It just uses a very traditional RPG perspective. Really, though, it's an adventure with seven fights.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Jackal

This one isn't really a hybrid,

Yargh......

Sounds interesting, though. I mean the game.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Wait, wait... let's be clear... Daemonica isn't just an RPG without fights. It's an RPG without any intrinsic roleplaying elements at all. No stats, no upgrades, no buying weapons and armour, none of that stuff. When you take away all of that, what you're left with is really an adventure. A fairly basic one, a fairly simple one, but an adventure nonetheless.

In Ultima VII, I can finish the game without once worrying about stats or even getting a single piece of armour (beyond items needed for solutions). So thats basically what I mean.

See to me an RPG isn't just about stats and numbers. Its about the playstyle. Its very hard to explain, because while I consider U7 to be an RPG I barely even tough the number side of it. The rest of the world and its interaction is where I see the role-playing part.

I'm the type who doesn't really bother with genre-nazi-ism (for lack of a better phrase) and would rather just play the game. Some people consider Zelda to be an RPG.....I don't, but I can almost understand what they mean. If an RPG was just about numbers then why bother with adding a story or interesting characters at all?

You'd end up with some crappy MMORPG thats why....empty and full of quests that lead nowhere and leveling up for all time so that you can show off your level 78 character as if it were your e-penis.

[Jackal]

I was simply clarifying terms. It may not matter to you, but it might to some. The whole point of the preview was to create an understanding of what the game is and isn't. I'm hardly about to let the thread slide back into misrepresenting it.

[Gonchi]

Originally Posted by Jackal

This one isn't really a hybrid, though, apart from the handful of (easy) fights. It just uses a very traditional RPG perspective. Really, though, it's an adventure with seven fights.

So how many fights does a game need to be considered a hybrid?

Easy or not, I never considered fighting to be a trait of adventure games, so to me the inclusion of combat makes Daemonica a hybrid, although perhaps with Action rather than RPG. I'll reach a better conclusion once I try the game out.

[Jackal]

That question will depend on the individual. Certainly Daemonica is walking a fine line. It's not just about number, though, but about the nature of the combat. Since you can stand there completely invincible unless you screw up in this game, it just won't really strike anyone as very genuine. It's more a timing exercise than anything, and there are plenty of those in regular adventures. You can die, yes, but you almost have to be trying to.

But yeah, if anything it's an action-adventure hybrid, not an action-roleplaying hybrid, as there's really none of the elements normally associated with roleplaying (leveling, stats, character classes, upgrades, etc.) Except its presentation, of course, since it looks like 90% of the RPGs out there.

[avatar_58]

Actually people need to look past perspectives. For some reason everyone assumes all RPGs are isometric. What about the elder scrolls series? There are also countless other isometric games which aren't RPGs.

Thats probably why so many people don't see Deus Ex as an RPG rather than just a shooter. The game happens to be in first person and just happens to include a gun. However, change the view to isometric and you've got Fallout.

Genres are a funny thing.....they have no real clear cut definitions. For the preview I would agree this sounds more like an action/adventure.

[Gonchi]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

What about the elder scrolls series?

Best ignored unless speaking particularly of Daggerfall, in my opinion.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Gonchi

Best ignored unless speaking particularly of Daggerfall, in my opinion.

All of them are first person RPGs. I wasn't commenting on their quality.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Actually people need to look past perspectives. For some reason everyone assumes all RPGs are isometric. What about the elder scrolls series? There are also countless other isometric games which aren't RPGs.

That's why we write the articles. Hard to blame people for their assumptions, though. Many people don't have time to investigate every new game, and the generalizations aren't groundless. I disagree that there are "countless" other isometric games that aren't RPGs. (Excluding RTSs, which are easy to distinguish even at a glance from an RPG).

Genres are a funny thing.....they have no real clear cut definitions. For the preview I would agree this sounds more like an action/adventure.

No clear cut boundaries, no. But there are some generally accepted characteristics. I classify Daemonica as an adventure because a 5 minute:15 hour ratio of action:adventure isn't enough. If anyone plays Daemonica for its action, they'll be completely and utterly disappointed. In fact, they'd probably stop playing once they realize there really isn't any, and what there is barely qualifies as action.

So, um, yeah. Adventure.

[avatar_58]

Well what about puzzle games? Action games like Zelda? Some older 3rd person shoot-em-ups have been isometric, even the new game Shadowgrounds. Diablo is isometric and is more of a hack-n-slash. Sim games are mostly isometric as well...theres even some sidescrollers that use this view....shall I go on?

I'm not trying to pry, but just to make a point that because a game uses a certain view doesn't mean its a certain genre. We need more games to prove this point further, so Daemonica is welcome.

[Jackal]

No, of course it doesn't mean a game is in a certain genre. But it probably means people will assume that unless it's specified otherwise. And for valid reason. I agree, Daemonica is a welcome change for being different. But that's why it's important to make it clear that it's NOT like the various games that came before it. This is exactly the sort of game I expect some people will stumble over a year from now and say, "oh, I didn't know it was an adventure!"

[Gonchi]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

I'm not trying to pry, but just to make a point that because a game uses a certain view doesn't mean its a certain genre.

Not always no, it's not an exact science.

In general, knowing the perspective a game will use gives you a good idea of what to expect in terms of game play. It's all preconceptions people have likely based on what they’ve seen before in games they’ve either enjoyed or disliked.

I'd say it's pretty much the same with all other forms of media, like for example with actors and movies, when you hear Stallone's in it you know it's probably another generic action film or Rocky 46.

Either way, might be a good idea to make a new thread in General about this.

Originally Posted by avatar_58

All of them are first person RPGs. I wasn't commenting on their quality.

Ahh... well pretty much all the earlier RPGs were in first person, including two of the big three series, M&M and Wizardy.

Bloodlines was also FP, and incidentally, I haven't seen many isometric RPGs in a while...

And with that I'll shut up before a mod fry pans me for further derailing the thread.