02-24-2006, 08:29 AM | #1 |
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Laura Bow 2 review
I liked reading this review, even though I haven't played the game.
Something struck me, though. I've heard Dagger of Amon Ra cited many times as one of the great AGs of yore, and reading the review gives the impression that's it's relatively worthless (as a game, in any case). I appreciate that a review is by nature the expression of an opinion, but in this case, wasn't it a bit too... er... extreme? I had the feeling that all the good points were deemed unworthy of attention in regard of the shortcomings (even though you cited both good and bad aspects of the game), and that you (that'll be kurufinwe) focused a lot on what felt wrong to you. So in the end what I'm wondering is: do people praise the game out of blind devotion to an good-looking Sierra game of the good old days (which wouldn't surprise me one bit ), or did you not like it the way you don't like, say, Goblins? (meaning that it's not your type of game, but could really please someone else)
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02-24-2006, 09:08 AM | #2 |
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Ah, Johann Walter = Kurufinwe. I see. (I can't keep up with all these secret identities.)
I like the game a lot, myself. It was one of my defining adventure game experiences, so I'm a bit biased, but even when acknowledging its problems, I think it's better than JW gives it credit for. Yes, the plot fails to coalesce as a whole, but each thread of the mystery is quite coherent, and allows you to engage in some actual sleuthing. As I recall, deducing that: Spoiler:... was quite satisfying. I also found the conversation system very much to my taste, allowing me to interrogate everyone about every subject. Sure, it demands a few clicks, but given the list of topics you can ask about, that seems unavoidable. The problem with the location of the other characters being inconsistent was something we discussed in regards to 5DAS, too. I think in Dagger of Amon Ra it quickly becomes clear that it's not something the game keeps track of. You just have to get over it and accept that the game doesn't model reality perfectly (just like in many adventure games you can have exactly the same conversation over and over again). Likewise, the two-dimensional characters and the strange fact that no one gets out of the museum are deliberate stylizations, like Clue! or those murder mystery theme party-games. You listen to the dialogue for clues to secrets, not to experience high-class Merchant-Ivory drama. Admittedly, the Inquest at the end, where you have to explain each murder, is a horrible task that even a perceptive player can only get right by trial and error, but with the help of a walkthrough this should only be a minor annoyance. Dagger of Amon Ra is a flawed game in many respects, but its strengths make it an enjoyable experience nevertheless: atmosphere out the wazoo, fun gameplay, a likeable heroine, and a dynamic (if nonsensical) story.
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02-24-2006, 09:13 AM | #3 | |
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EDIT: I wrote this before seeing Snarky's post. Will get to it.
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There's a policy at AGs that a reviewer should only review types of games he likes. As you can see from my review of The Colonel's Bequest, I like detective games a lot. So that's definitely not what my problem was with LB2. I know that quite a few people seem to like it, and there are some very positive reviews of this game floating around. I've read them, and they really haven't managed to convince me. But I think I can see why people might like that game: it looks good, has a great atmosphere, has that special Sierra touch, etc. As I said in the conclusion, if you can just entirely forget about the plot, or take each element individually without seeing that it doesn't fit in with the others (though, without wishing to offend anyone, I'd say you'd have to be rather braindead for that), then, yes, it's nice. If there hadn't been the questions at the end, it might have been possible not to notice the nonsensical plot. As it is, the game is just forcing you to look at its own flaws. Now, regarding whether I might have chosen to focus more on some elements that others... Well, the plot is the gameplay. The first two acts (out of six) are almost only about conversation --- and I said what I thought of conversations in that game. Then, it's a lot of listening at doors, hiding behind tapestries, etc. Sure, that's fun, but if what you discover that was is clichéd and nonsensical, it stops being fun soon enough. But don't get the score wrong: 2.5/5 doesn't mean that LB2 is an average/bad game. It's really more like a mouldy cake with lots of icing on it --- and, seemingly, many people were happy with just giving the icing a quick lick. Jack hasn't played it, and neither have you. I'd really like to know if people who have disagree with my review, and why. For the moment, I'm convinced that LB2 is a bad game, but that it's very possible for some people to like it a lot. But I'm willing to discuss that --- and, possibly, even to change my mind.
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02-24-2006, 11:14 AM | #4 | |||||
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Oh, wait... You mean the not-at-all subtle hints in the intro were not enough and you only discovered it later? Boy, you're slow. More seriously, that particular subplot didn't work too bad, and even more or less managed to fit within the main plot. And so do quite a few other elements. But it's all done quite inconsistently: some things fit together and others don't. Just like some things are painfully obvious (including the identity of the murderer), while others are really impossible to get by yourself. And many very important things are never explained by the game and, to this day, still make no sense to me. This includes: Spoiler: I think that you'll agree that those are not exactly minor questions. Maybe you thought that it didn't really matter. Well, it bugged me. A lot. It still does. I can accept any inconsistency in Monkey Island or Space Quest, I can accept minor inconsistencies in LB1, GK3, etc., I can even accept the time distorsions in GK2, but that was too much for me. Quote:
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I'm not saying that having one puzzle that requires you to cheat is an unforgivable flaw (although, for a game released long before the Internet became widespread, it's certainly not a great idea). But when it is this one, this big 'puzzle' that the whole game is all about, then, yes, it is unforgivable. But know that, even without that feature, I wouldn't have given LB2 a positive review (though the score would probably have been a 3). Quote:
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02-24-2006, 12:07 PM | #5 |
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I've always thought "The Dagger of Amon Ra" was a pretty darn good game so I'm not really in the same space as the reviewer. Dagger has so many cool things going for it. And, damn, if it doesn't have the hottest Sierra box art ever. The stylized painting and embossing on the cover scream fierce.
I also really enjoyed the original Lara Bow game quite a bit if not moreso. |
02-24-2006, 12:54 PM | #6 | |
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02-24-2006, 01:06 PM | #7 | ||
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02-24-2006, 02:53 PM | #8 | |
The Thread™ will die.
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Anyway, carry on . I haven't played either Laura Bow game (I know, feel free to pan me), but I really ought to. |
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02-24-2006, 06:49 PM | #9 |
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I think that, for all its flaws (early Sierra game and all.. ), the "The Colonel's Bequest" is the superior game, overall. And apparently the kind of game "And Then There Were None" tried to be (except that it didn't try and opted for every sad adventure gaming clichè possible instead).
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02-24-2006, 08:42 PM | #10 |
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I've never played LB2, and as a Sierra fan I need to. Unfortunately I will probably end up loving it due to my very biased views towards older sierra games ( ) but then again who knows?
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02-24-2006, 09:06 PM | #11 | ||||||||
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For instance, I prefer the over-the-top carnage (and real suspense) of Dagger of Amon Ra to the pretentious nonsense of Gabriel Knight. Quote:
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And the conversation systems in those other games aren't really comparable, as they don't allow you nearly the same amount of freedom in interrogating people. Quote:
Of course, the reason for this is that LB2 doesn't primarily attempt to mimic reality, but rather whodunits in books, plays and films. When you try to look at it as if it was real, some details are a bit odd, but no more so than when a trireme defeats a gunboat in Civilization. Quote:
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02-25-2006, 12:56 AM | #12 | |||||||||
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Of course, as a forum poster, I reserve the right to defend my opinions to the end of my days. I don't really hope to make you change your mind, though --- only your replaying the game might have a chance of achieving that. You should try to do that at some point, if you have the time; you might have surprises. Or maybe not. Quote:
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And no, I don't think it's unfair. The MI and SQ games promise to be comedies, to make me have fun. If they do that, then I'm glad and can easily consider whatever inconsistencies they have as minor flaws. LB2 promises to be a detective game, something that will stimulate my intelligence; if it insults it instead, then, yes, I feel I have every right to feel cheated. Quote:
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02-25-2006, 03:01 PM | #13 |
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion! From what I've read, however, most reviewers loved Lara Bow 2.
From my archive: |
02-25-2006, 08:12 PM | #14 |
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It's not really fair to compare 14 year old reviews to current reviews of a 14 year old game. Reviewing an older game is always a balancing act, since on the one hand we try to acknowledge a game's historical context, while on the other still being obliged to critique how it has stood the test of time.
Now, this is NOT to say that the criticisms here are nothing but the product of hindsight. They definitely aren't. But it's hard to say how things like the character clichés would have fared BEFORE they became so dreadfully overused, or how the clunky dialogue system would have seemed BEFORE more streamlined approaches became the norm. These are just random examples to make a general point, of course. In preparation for running this review, I went seeking out other reviews, since I knew that our score was significantly lower than most. What I found were a lot of high scores, and very little to support them. They largely had the same kind of feel as the ones in Eriq's link: "It's Laura! It's Sierra! It's fun!" Like Johann has asked for here, I looked for any that even addressed the valid criticisms he's made, and came away empty handed. And that made me comfortable in thinking a lot of slack had been cut this game, and that a little closer scrutiny was not unwarranted. |
02-25-2006, 08:35 PM | #15 |
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I am sure I might have a different opinion if I were to go back and play it again today. A friend of mine is doing so as we speak and he doesn't seem to be having all that much fun! LOL. Of course, I am biased (I was a Sierra FANATIC!) because I thought Lara Bow was the shit back in the day. What a fun character.
I, too, was hoping "And Then There Were None" would be a modern-day "Dagger of Amon Ra" type game but unfortunately it didn't quite grab me the same way. |
02-26-2006, 01:21 AM | #16 |
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The problem with reviews written at the time of the game's release is that they usually did not actually finish the game, or rather that they reached the end and failed on the questions (or had to cheat there). I remember the review in the French magazine Tilt, and it was exactly the same thing: 'ooh, looks great, sounds great, great protagonist,
It's always a problem when reviewing a game. I think a reviewer should always have played the game at least twice before writing a review, but he has to keep in mind that his readers probably only care about how it'll play for them on their first (and sometimes only) playthrough. This is espcially hard for me when reviewing old games, as I have usually played them several times, and may not play them with the same eye as the first time (this is also a problem I'm encountering with the review I'm currently working on...). For LB2, it is indeed possible for someone who plays it for the first time not to notice many of the flaws (though some are really impossible to miss); should I just have ignored the fact that they were there and say 'go on, play it, you'll have fun if you don't look too hard'? I decided against that, but it's never easy to answer that question appropriately.
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02-26-2006, 01:53 AM | #17 | |
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Of course, when writing a review now, you're writing for people who've been spoiled playing GK, TLJ, TLE, etc. But blaming LB2 for bad characters is certainly a bit anachronistic (except that it really contributes in bringing the plot down, and already did at the time). And the dialogue interface is not something you can excuse, 14-year-old game or not. Bad UI design is bad UI design, and if people at Access, Lankhor, Delphine had been able to come up with something better before, there's no reason the people at Sierra couldn't. Their awful system really is something that has to experienced to be believed.
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02-26-2006, 06:19 AM | #18 |
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Okay, but you're making the same point as I am: that once an element gets improved and expanded upon and polished, you can no longer look back on what came before with the same innocent appreciation or acceptance you (might have) had for those things originally. As I said, the two specifics I mentioned were just arbitrary choices to illustrate the point.
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02-26-2006, 06:23 AM | #19 | |
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02-26-2006, 06:25 AM | #20 |
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No, but it sounded like you were trying to disagree with me while saying more or less the same thing. I just figured I didn't make my point clear enough.
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