[Jake]

Thats what I like. An entertaining honest, somewhat gutsy review which also shockingly includes Evan Dickens fessing up to some stuff. Good work. Its good to see a review on AG that isn't hesitant to seriously piss on something that a high profile game like BS3 does really poorly (ie its puzzle design), without coupling it to an opinion that seems to not at all jive with everyone else on earth (ie the classic "Grim Fandango has a lame soundtrack" or "Runaway is a 4.5/5 star game" arguments to name a couple ). Its probably my favorite AG review, at least in recent memory. It probably helps that I agree with it.

[remixor]

Agreed. Great review, for sure.

[davez82]

wow 4 is kinda high, I think it shoulda gotten a 3.9

[remixor]

I'm sure it would have, if AG's review system allowed for 1/10ths of a star...

[BacardiJim]

I'm stunned. Simply stunned.

How can a reviewer so thoroughly bash the puzzle design of an adventure game and then turn around and give if 4 stars just because it has good storytelling?

For the $40 I won't be spending on BS3, I could see five movies. I can pretty much be assured that even the weakest of the five be a better storytelling experience than BS3 (since I don't go out to see "turkeys) and they will ALL be more "cinematic" than BS3 because... well... they are actual cinema! And assuming that at least a couple of them are fairly long movies I'd even be entertained for about the same length of time.

For $40 I could buy two books that will most definitely be a better storytelling experience and will keep me entertained for days and days.

If you are going to reduce the measuring stick of an adventure game's quality to nothing more than its storytelling technique and eye-candy, then you have forgotten the entire idea of what an adventure game is... or at least what it was. Even the most rabid Revolution-ary (hehe) will generally admit that puzzle design is at least an integral (if not the most important) part of an adventure game. As a critic, it is Evan's job to remember and consider that. And in my humble opinion, no responsible critique can so thoroughly castigate this integral part of the adventure gaming experience in a particular game, and then turn around and give it such a high numerical rating.

Without the puzzles, it's just fiction. A movie.

Is BS3 a 4 star movie? I seriously doubt it.

[remixor]

In some adventure games, the puzzles are absolutely paramount. In others, they are present but not the focus. BS3 definitely falls into the latter category. Ideally, all elements should be excellent, but not all games have the same goals, and BS3's goal was not to provide puzzles with a story, but story with some puzzles. Evan graded the game under those assumptions, from what I can tell, but still considered the puzzle design an important enough factor to warrant the removal of a star (along with a couple other complains which were relatively less important). I think he justified himself. It's great that you love puzzles as much as you do, but don't try to pigeonhole the genre into being a puzzle delivery system, because that's really not all it has (or had) to be.

Anyway, it looks like the review was exactly what it needed to be from your perpspective. I assume you won't be buying the game, and this review should reinforce that decision.

[BacardiJim]

I understand that puzzles are no longer considered a paramount part of game design... but they are still considered an integral part of it if you still want to call it an adventure game, yes?

And if an integral part of ANY entertainment work fails so completely miserably as Evan says BS3's puzzles did, then how can you give that work a 4/5 80% rating?

If you make a movie that is wonderful... except the cinematography is blurry or the acting is atrocious or the dialogue is insipid or the editing is a confusing mishmash..... then can a critic give that movie a 4 star rating no matter how much the other parts of the movie excelled?

I don't think so.

[ragnar]

BJ: It is an overall score, not a puzzle design score. If you couldn't give higher score than the worst of it's parts (i.e., story, puzzles, music, graphics, gameplay, etc.) there would be no scores higher than about 3.5/5. If you would apply the same argumentation for a game like Myst you wouldn't be able to give it higher than, say three, because it has very little story.

[nordic_guy]

Good review, and although the crate puzzles didn't bother me thatmuch, I agree with most of it.
Some of the (crate)puzzles might have been flawed, and the controls weren't exactly top-notch all the time, but when you have finished the game, you're left with a good feeling that says you have played a good adventure game.
The storytelling in this game is far superior to most of the recent adventure games released, and that is what makes an adventure game in my opinion.
When someone asked on this forum not so long ago why they played adventure games, most people answered (among other reasons) because of the genres ability to tell good stories.
You might argue saying you can find better stories in movies or books, but perhaps gaming isn't for you then? (Not saying it isn't, of course)
What I didn't see in the review, was the mention of the diversity in the puzzles in this game. Finally someone has realized that it do get boring with just inventory-based puzzles throughout the entire game *cough*runaway*cough*.
It was nice sneaking around the Prague castle for instance.
I do find it a bit sad, though, that review has to apologize for the scor in comparison to other games recently reviewed. Is it this the adventure game community has come to? Scores?

[VoodooFX]

Nice review. I haven't had the chance to try the game yet, but i certainly don't like this crate moving puzzle ideas... if i wanted to move crates, i'd go and play Sokoban.

[Naveed]

Very nice review. Crate puzzles are rightly punished . I really like the confession about GF, may be you can officially declare it a five star game now that it surely deserve.

[Marek]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

For the $40 I won't be spending on BS3, I could see five movies.

If you like puzzles so much why don't you play Sokoban or Tetris all day? Much cheaper than all those expensive adventure games. You can even get free Flash puzzle games on the internet.

Same argument, just reversed.

[BacardiJim]

Actually, it evades my argument, which is that puzzle design is a significant and integral part of an adventure game, if no longer the primary component; and that an adventure game without puzzles (or with as crappy of puzzle design as Evan indicates BS3 has) is merely an interactive movie. For the money, I could see five far superior movies.

And certainly a game that fails so miserably in such a significant aspect (an aspect that for most of the last 20 years defined the genre) can't really be justifiably given a four star rating, can it?

[ragnar]

Story and character development are also primary components of an adventure game. Are you saying that adventure games that have insignifcant story and character development (such as Myst and it's followers) can't get a high rating?

And as Marek pointed out, an adventure game without story and character development is merely a puzzle game and you could get lots and lots of superior puzzle games for those money.

[DomStLeger]

For the same money you could see five crap movies lasting 7 and 1/2 hours compared to a very good computer game lasting 11. (Serious - list me five good movies out at the moment that you'd want to see? The only good one I can see coming out soon is the new lord of the rings)

I think Evan has got his review almost spot on, it's a very good game in almost every respect except for the puzzles. More inventory style puzzles were needed, and less crate puzzles (though there were some good crate puzzles, just too many of them). But everything else in the game; the graphics, the story, the dialogue, the locations, the atmosphere - they were all brilliant imo. The flaw was the puzzles.

I pray to god BS3 has sold well enough for Rev, because they have already started their next game and I want to play it, and am already excited. Up until BS3 I was becoming apathetic towards adventure games; I hadn't seen a good one in ages. I'll admit that I was a little disappointed in BS3 because of the puzzle side, but I still enjoyed the game alot and it's definatley the most satisfying £30 I've spent in ages.

[BacardiJim]

Character development is actually a pretty recent addition to adventure games. Apparently, you would say that Zork, Myst, 80% of all text adventures and well over half of all graphic adventures released in the 80's and 90's aren't adventure games because there was no character development.

It is certainly possible to have an adventure game with no character development. The majority of adventure games published over the last 20 years had none. A huge number had the famous Anonymous Non-Gender-Specific etc. whom you never even see. Are you saying all first-person perspective ("slideshow" style) adventure games aren't really adventure games?

Apparently so.

It is NOT, however, possible to divorce puzzle design from an "adventure game." It was, since the inception of the genre, the single defining characteristic of what is an adventure game. Recent changes in the marketplace may have lessened the importance of puzzle design or raised the importance of other things like characters or dialogue, but I refuse to accept that puzzle design can be considered of niggling importance when discussing the quality of an adventure game.

[ragnar]

I am not saying those games aren't adventure games. I just think you overestimate the importance of the puzzles, or at least overestimates the importance of the puzzles for everyone else (you are of course entitled to think that the puzzles are everything to an adventure game for yourself), and try to show that to you by applying your argumentation the other way around.

I simply do not agree that an adventure game should merely be valued by it's puzzles as you seem to suggest. There are so much more to them than that.

[BacardiJim]

I am saying that the puzzling nature of adventure games is the very thing that has defined them for most of their existence. Yes, that makes it a fairly important characteristic. Important enough that a game which fails miserably at it can hardly deserve 4 stars.

I am NOT saying that it is the sole characteristic on which a game should be judged. And there is a new generation of gamers who apparently don't consider it important it all.

[Pappapisshu]

And I'd just like to say that I think it's an excellent, excellent review. Probably the best one I've read at Adventure Gamers. Great!

[BacardiJim]

Then perhaps I am writing for the wrong publication.