12-16-2003, 01:18 AM | #21 | |
Knowledgeable
|
Quote:
I have never played adventure games for the sake of their puzzles. If I want challenging puzzles I play games like Lemmings, DROD and other similar games. Puzzles are an integral part of adventure games, but not the most important one. I played Monkey Island, for example, mostly because of it's humour and it's story even if the puzzles are a necessity. Can we agree that puzzles are important to adventures, but you find them (much?) more important than I do?
__________________
Rem acu tetigisti -- Jeeves Read my adventure game reviews here Blaskan Dragon Go Server Ragnar Ouchterlony |
|
12-16-2003, 01:24 AM | #22 |
Banned User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,346
|
Certainly.
Can we agree that puzzles have been part of the definition of adventure games through most of their existence? (Hell, even Marek says "Adventure games focus on puzzle solving within a narrative framework." in his "What Is an Adventure Game?" article when defining the term.) And can we agree that it is, at least.... odd to so thoroughly trash a part of the game that we both consider important (in varying degrees) as Evan did and still give it 4 stars?
__________________
Time flies like the wind; Fruit flies like bananas. Last edited by BacardiJim; 12-16-2003 at 01:30 AM. |
12-16-2003, 01:30 AM | #23 |
Knowledgeable
|
Yes, puzzles has been part of the definition of adventure games, certainly, but as said, just a part and not the whole of it.
I want to point out that I haven't played BS3. But on reading Evan's review he seems to consider the puzzle part somewhere about 2/5 stars (I don't agree that he completely thrashes out the puzzles, he is just irritated over that there are too few inventory based puzzles and way too much crate puzzles) and everything else 5/5 stars, or at least pretty near that so I don't think it is that a strange rating. I think the rating for Runaway is much more strange, but that is a another story.
__________________
Rem acu tetigisti -- Jeeves Read my adventure game reviews here Blaskan Dragon Go Server Ragnar Ouchterlony |
12-16-2003, 01:32 AM | #24 |
AKA Morte
|
Like remixor said, it's all there in the review about the puzzle design. If you find that part of it so important, you'd heed Stingers warning and not buy it. If you don't care a lot for the puzzles, run to the store. A review isn't only about its score, y'know.
|
12-16-2003, 01:34 AM | #25 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,346
|
Quote:
But I think this is as close to an agreement as we're going to get, so I'll just offer my hand and drop the subject. Thanks for considering that I might actually have a point. That's more than some of the "forumites" are likely to grant me.
__________________
Time flies like the wind; Fruit flies like bananas. |
|
12-16-2003, 01:44 AM | #26 |
Knowledgeable
|
Well, I'll comment further on the BS3 review when I have actually played the game (which I don't know when it will be).
I think that there lately has been (too much of) a refusal to see that there are many ways to play an adventure game and only consider the way oneself is playing as the only one possible and dismissing every one else as not worth listening to.
__________________
Rem acu tetigisti -- Jeeves Read my adventure game reviews here Blaskan Dragon Go Server Ragnar Ouchterlony |
12-16-2003, 01:53 AM | #27 |
Banned User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,346
|
I really try to avoid doing exactly that in my reviews/articles. For instance, in my In Memoriam review I suggested that some people wouldn't even consider it an adventure game, and explained why... despite the fact that I loved the game. Or in the URU article I point out that while I didn't consider it truly a Myst game, it had some wonderful things that Myst doesn't. Or in the Rose Tattoo review I mention how the same level of detail that some players will love will completely drown others.
I think it's important to consider the views of those with different tastes than your own when writing an article. I applaud Evan on his unflinching attack on BS3's poor puzzle design. I was merely surprised that he could give it such a high overall rating despite that weakness. And, truth be told, because of my own preferences, I overreacted a bit. I can do that here in the forum, while I can't when writing reviews. lol
__________________
Time flies like the wind; Fruit flies like bananas. |
12-16-2003, 03:42 AM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 914
|
Yeah, I think it's important to consider everybody's views here .. fact is, lots of people will judge the game as an overall experience, not solely on one of its parts. [haven't played it either, yet, so not inferring anything] Personally, while I *do* enjoy solving puzzles -- I'm addicted to books of Logic Puzzles -- I generally go for a straight puzzle if I'm in the mood for that, turn to a book if I want *really* good story and characterization, and to an adventure game if I want that blend of humour, interactivity and story that characterizes lots of adventures.
|
12-16-2003, 03:57 AM | #29 |
Antibacterial
|
Well, gee, I actually agree with the whole review. Shocking.
I also think Revolution is onto something with making more enviroment-based puzzles, it was just too bad they stopped with the boxes. Hopefully they'll take it a few steps further in their next game, and make more of the backgrounds interactive. |
12-16-2003, 04:45 AM | #30 |
Puts the 'e' in Mark
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,138
|
Perhaps the perception here is that Evan thinks all of BS3's puzzles are horrible, but from what he told me he liked the puzzles in the game that did not involve crate pushing. If literally all the puzzles in the game would have been bad, I agree that 4 stars would be a little strange. But with BS3, this is not the case. It's been rightfully praised by many people for having some really well-written puzzles. Therefore I think the score is fine (I would have given it the same score).
|
12-16-2003, 06:40 AM | #31 |
The Dartmaster
|
on web forums, hobos live in rantytowns ¬
I think the way Evan presented the puzzles in his review is perfect. Its obvious from his review that he enjoyed the game and recommends it to everyone. In fact, I haven't seen someone speak higher of a game on this site in their written review, even the ones with higher star ratings.
Yes, Evan is critical of the puzzles, especially of the crate pushing variety, but you can still tell from the review that he was enjoying his gaming experience. He still sounded like he was extrordinarily intrigued and entertained by the game. Compare that to say, the Uru diary article, which despite occasionally saying things like "oh I assure you I like it, kind of," you get the feeling overall that Jim spent his time miserably frustrated disappointed and insulted by the game he was playing. To be honest, the game had it coming. Based on how much Evan praised the entire experience of the game, and based on what everyone was expecting from the game (in part thanks to Charles Cecil's comments earlier this year), if some one facet of the game doesn't work as expected, it is going to stick out that badly. You will notice it. Does that make the game bad? No, clearly not, as Evan still gave it a 4 out of 5. Just like Grim's often-infuriating play control sticks out glaringly amidst an otherwise brilliant game: You notice it. It annoys you. The game amazes you elsewhere. You get over it. Repeatedly presenting the player with basically nothing to do but shove boxes around, slowly, with precise required motion, on a grid system reminiscent of 8 bit video games from over a decade ago, for a half hour, before they're able to continue their quest, is a very bad thing. Couple that with a few of the "classic" puzzles not working out to be quite as enjoyable as planned, and, you know, people playing the game will be making the frustrated frown of sorrow and annoyance. But! Growing pains are not only acceptable, they're inevitable. And (as Evan mentioned with glee) Broken Sword 3 is one of the few games that come along and, in an honest-to-God way, actually attempt to blaze new trails for the graphic adventure genre. I think when you do that, and you're the first one out of the gate doing it, something's gotta give. Unless you have an extra year or two to basically create your revolutionary game design once, and then re-create it with what you learned the first time through before packaging it and selling it, this is what will happen. Is it a big deal? Well, no. But some of the puzzle design suffered. Does that make the game bad? No, clearly not, as Evan still gave it a 4 out of 5. Growing pains, man. Will Revolution's next game overcome the things Evan mention? I think we can safely assume that yes it will. I hope readers or Revolution or whoever aren't insulted or offended somehow by Evan's writeup of the game just because he points out that in his eyes Broken Sword 3 has a large glaring flaw... because if that insults you, you've missed the crucial second half of his point: Broken Sword 3 more than overcomes this flaw and is still a classic game. Granted, there are plenty of good, or even excellent, puzzles in BS3, but the fact is that you remember the bad ones. "The game is *ing awesome, but it burned me a few times with the puzzles." I think as time progresses and people become slightly more detached from the game, what Evan was saying in his story will be the generally accepted view of Broken Sword 3. His review is filled with respect and appreciation for not only the advances made in BS3's game design and guts to do something new, but also just for how fantastic the world and characters and really the experience of playing the game are. The quality and fun of the detail, style, and spirit of Broken Sword 3 is something that has been sorely missing from adventures for a long long time, and not only does BS3 have that same feeling from the old classics, but it occasionally surpasses it. If I had made Broken Sword 3, or if I was an adventure gamer looking to buy a new game, I would be very pleased with Evan's review.
__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games "I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens |
12-16-2003, 07:19 AM | #32 |
rare groove
|
There's nothing for me to add, Jake said it all. Amen, man.
__________________
strike a match, strike a pose, strike your girlfriend in the nose |
12-16-2003, 07:48 AM | #33 |
Club a seal or two
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Oh Canada!
Posts: 300
|
I can't agree nor disagree with the rating since I haven't played the game yet, but I really can't see myself immersed into the game world if the puzzles are so glaringly weak. Story and characters are more important to me than puzzles, but bad puzzles tend to stand in the way of narrative and ruin the suspension of disbelief.
For me at least. |
12-16-2003, 09:26 AM | #34 |
Head up in the clouds
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 207
|
I've just read Evan's review and would give him 4 out of 5 myself.
I agree with literally everything he said, apart from two things: 1. he's absolutely overrated the crate puzzles (I wonder how few there actually were). 2. he gives the game 4 out of 5 and calls it the best adventure game of 2003. Other than that: spot on! My fear after Evan's initial impression was, that he would talk to CCs mouth, but I have been proven wrong. GREAT!
__________________
1000 words say more than a picture. To the world you are someone, but to someone you are the world. |
12-16-2003, 02:18 PM | #35 | |
A search for a crazy man!
|
EDIT: I wrote this not even noticing that there were two pages to this thread. If I said anything that's already been covered in the second page, I apologize in advance. Whoopsie.
Quote:
__________________
Chris "News Editor" Remo Some sort of Writer or Editor or Something, Idle Thumbs "Some comparisons are a little less obvious. I always think of Grim Fandango as Casablanca on acid." - Will Wright |
|
12-16-2003, 02:38 PM | #36 | ||
The Dartmaster
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games "I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens |
||
12-17-2003, 03:59 AM | #37 | |
Head up in the clouds
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 207
|
Quote:
:eek: 15 Crate Puzzles? You're probably right, when every time that a crate has to be moved (like the first time where George has to move a crate in the plane) is counting. I had an easy time with all of them, so I guess I wouldn't really class them as 'proper' puzzles. But granted, 15 times really is annoyingly much. Point given. I did not say that best AG of the year would mean having to give it 5 out of 5. I should probably have made that numbers 2 and 3 then. I meant that I do not agree with Stinger giving it 4 out of 5. I would have gone for 3.5 at the most because of the lack of puzzles mainly. AND I would not call it best AG of the year. So far, I prefer the rather refreshing Runaway, although I wouldn't compare the two. It's simply a matter of taste. Although I played that game quite some time before BS3 I have a much more vivid and positive memory of it.
__________________
1000 words say more than a picture. To the world you are someone, but to someone you are the world. |
|
12-18-2003, 04:29 AM | #38 |
Prove it all night
|
unfortunately ive not finished bs3 yet (damn deus ex:invisible war!), but from what ive seen, yeah the review was bang on. the game does drag us, in some cases kicking and screaming into 21st century gaming, but is only the beginning. it is revolutionary, no pun intended, but isnt perfect. well done that man!
__________________
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." - Thomas Edward Lawrence |
12-18-2003, 06:52 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Posts: 578
|
I haven't finished the game yet (I think I'm pretty close though), but I would like to comment on the puzzles. I thought that the puzzels in BS3 were, for the most part, excellent. I absolutely love the part of the game at the castle in Prague it is amazing. I also don't see what all of the fuss is about over the block puzzles. I'm not bothered by them in the least. I think the longest I have spent on any of them was like 2 minutes. They aren't hard at all and I don't think that they are to badly placed to detracted from the game. From what I've played BS3 is an excellent game, better than BS2 but a long way from the nearly perfect BS1. I would have liked a few more characters to talk to.
|
12-18-2003, 10:55 AM | #40 | |
Umbilicus Mundi
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stonia
Posts: 1,266
|
Quote:
I just finished Prague and for me most of the crate pushing was ok and I don't hate them, but I still don't really understand the decision to put so much crate pushing in the game (so far I've counted about 11 crate puzzles). And all the bloody crates look the same! Other annoyances: You can't skip cut-scenes or dialogue lines (esp. annoying with the answering machines). Sometimes there is also a several seconds pause after a dialogue is over when nothing happens and you can't do anything. I'm a bit tired of hearing "the door is locked and has nothing to do with the game" in 10 variations. Same goes for "this doesn't work". I use a key to unlock a door and when I try to be nice and lock it after leaving, I don't want to hear "that isn't appropriate". Still, it's a pretty good game and Revolution did a relatively good job.
__________________
|
|