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Old 01-06-2006, 10:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ninth
Judging by the quality of Samorost 1 (which is pretty neat, don't get me wrong), "an instant, Hall of Fame classic" seems a bit overkill for Samorost 2.
Reasons? They're extremely similar, so the sequel won't likely change your impression.
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Old 01-06-2006, 10:23 AM   #22
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It'm not talking about what Samorost tried to achieve and what didn't. I'm talking about how AG grade adventures. Actually, I think nobody will argue that there are two main standarts you rate and adventure game: story and puzzles. There might be more of this and less of that, or more of that and less of this, or 50/50, but both of them in sum should dominate above all other aspects.
What we have here is almost no story ("saving a dog and running away" is just a plane objective, like in any standart arcade game), almost no puzzles (the only thing you have to think about is clicking on hot spots in the right order, very often without logic involved). Add to this the short length of the game, no character development, no interactivity, no dialogs or inventory - just plain "move to the next beautiful screen by finding all hot spots" - and please explain what's so special about Samorost to rate it "4.5"

And about Fatman - well, it was a no-good adventure. But it was amateurish, it was a parody and it was actually a medium-lengh adventure game, with plot and puzzles. It is also not a full-priced adventure, and it gave an apportunity to try the first several locations, puzzles and a piece of story (and I even not talking about the "ripped" version that was put by authors for a free use after some time).
How Samorost 2 can be called "an all-time classics that every adventure gamer should experience" is beyond my understandment, sorry
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Old 01-06-2006, 10:57 AM   #23
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Actually, I think nobody will argue that there are two main standarts you rate and adventure game: story and puzzles.
I can't speak for all of AG's reviewers, but when I rate a game I am rating it based on the overall playing experience. That often comes down to whether the story and puzzles were enjoyable, yes. But those two things are not the only two things that make up a good experience.

Obviously, the only person who can tell us exactly why she rated the game 4.5 stars is Kim herself. But I think you're misunderstanding the way AG ranks games. Please take another look at our editorial policies. Nowhere do we claim to be ranking games based on story and puzzles. The stars are simply meant to represent whether or not the reviewer (as a fan of adventure games) recommends it to other fans of adventure games. When Kim gives Samorost 2 4.5 stars, she's essentially saying, "This is a really great little game, and for $10 you won't be disappointed." What's wrong with that?
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Old 01-06-2006, 11:32 AM   #24
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Again with the puzzles. Just because you don't NEED to think your way through Samorost, that doesn't mean they aren't puzzles. You can randomly click your way through a slider puzzle, too. It's still a puzzle. Whether you choose to think your way through them is up to you.

Like I said, you're complaining about our scoring, when really your gripe is that Samorost doesn't fit your description of an adventure. Which is fine. But it does fit ours, and we graded it the same way we'd grade any other adventure: based on its own qualities, not what it SHOULD have included to be more like every other game out there.

As for being original, well, by all means please let us know of other games that are similar. We just might like those, too. Originality is rarely about doing things never done before, but doing things in a unique way.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:47 PM   #25
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Looks like I really put the cat amongst the pigeons here

Saying why I gave the game 4 and 1/2 stars is a bit like repeating myself but I will explain. I agree the game lacks story and it lacks dialogue, I acknowledged this myself in the review. However, the puzzles, general feel while playing and atmosphere all made the game compulsive. You may say the puzzles are just clicking on the screen, but they aren't- clicking randomly on hotspots will only get you so far. The vast majority of puzzles are well thought out and in places quite inventive. Ignoring visuals for a second, I was really captivated by the gnome and his dog, the creatures you encounter and the thoughtfulness of the puzzles meant that it was always a surprise to see what came next. It wasn't predictable. Yes the game is very short, I can't deny that and I acknowledge that maybe some feel it isn't worth- I however think it is.

And lets face it, if you played the original and don't see the point or played the free part of the sequel and aren't intrigued, you don't have to pay for the next part. I just personally feel that it's worth it for the experience and that many adventure gamers will love it. Quality is the key factor here and I would much prefer a short game at this standard than 30+ hours of a rubbish game. I expect many people could also deried Another Code for being too short, but that didn't stop it from being an incredible little game.

Just so it's noted, this is the very first 4 and 1/2 I have ever given out in the reviews I have written so far and I thought very hard about it.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLacey
To go completely off-topic: you write for Games™?

:EDIT: Back on topic: Nice review. I'm very tempted to get this .
Er yes, I have written for a couple of issues. It's future isn't looking too great at the moment though

Everyone feel free to go back to slating my review now
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Old 01-06-2006, 03:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Reasons? They're extremely similar, so the sequel won't likely change your impression.
It felt too much like a fun little thing, and not enough like an experience, it didn't trigger emotions, as opposed to other games.
For example, the last AG I've played was Cahallan's Crosstime Saloon, and frankly, there's a world of difference between what both games made me experience. On one hand "just" fun, on the other enthousiasm and pleasure.
And that's just an example; there are a whole bunch of games on my personal Hall of Fame, alongside which Samorost pales.
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Old 01-06-2006, 03:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat
Er yes, I have written for a couple of issues. It's future isn't looking too great at the moment though
Quite. I'm hoping that whoever buys Highbury keeps it, but that may be a hope in vain .

Quote:
Everyone feel free to go back to slating my review now
OK. You didn't mention Dreamfall once .

I am damn tempted to get this. Does the downloadable version that buyers get contain the original Samorost as well, or is it only the sequel?

Hang on, I should stop being lazy and just go look at the site...
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Last edited by RLacey; 01-06-2006 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Question mark instead of a full stop. How evil of me :'(
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Old 01-06-2006, 04:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
For example, the last AG I've played was Cahallan's Crosstime Saloon, and frankly, there's a world of difference between what both games made me experience.
I don't disagree with that (having played Callahan's, myself). And if Samorost 2 retailed for what Callahan's did, then I'm sure our review would have called it a charming little game, but WAY overpriced and hard to recommend to anybody.

But it isn't. It's a much smaller game with much more modest ambitions, and priced accordingly. And it achieves its goals wonderfully. And we have to judge it on that basis, not what we'd prefer in a full-priced game. To do less would be burying the game with our own bias without it having a chance.

Of course, we're running into the same problem we always do when focusing only on a score. There's a reason we write the reviews. We aren't saying Samorost 2 is "better" than any games scored lower. They're not competing against each other. How could they, when they offer such different experiences? We're just saying Samorost 2 is a brilliant little game that is well worth its price.
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Old 01-06-2006, 05:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
Of course, we're running into the same problem we always do when focusing only on a score. There's a reason we write the reviews. We aren't saying Samorost 2 is "better" than any games scored lower. They're not competing against each other. How could they, when they offer such different experiences? We're just saying Samorost 2 is a brilliant little game that is well worth its price.
But then, some people (like, erm, me) are bound to compare games based on their score. And putting all the 4.5 stars together, one can't help noticing that Samorost pales in comparison.
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Old 01-06-2006, 08:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
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But then, some people (like, erm, me) are bound to compare games based on their score. And putting all the 4.5 stars together, one can't help noticing that Samorost pales in comparison.
Well, again, that's why we write the reviews. If people only look at scores, we can't save them from themselves.

And I still say it doesn't really pale at all. It's all about expectation. Is a photograph lesser than a video? Is it reasonable to expect a photo can convey everything a video can? Is it therefore inherently inferior? Or can it have its own innate excellence that can be appreciated without comparing it to what it's not?

You can poke holes in the analogy, but the point remains. At $10, Samorost 2 is more deserving of being on most gamers' hard drives for its own unique qualities than the majority of other games deserve to be at their higher price tags.

As always, all games are subject to personal preference, but that goes without saying.
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Old 01-08-2006, 05:35 AM   #32
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Ok, I understand how you see the score here at AG and I guess it's OK. I used to rate games depending on their aspects, so if game has no story but have lots of puzzles, and it calls itself "adventure", it must be of some very ospecial kind to gain my personal hi score. The same with lots of story and no puzzles. Actually, I can count on fingers games of such kind.
And overall impression.. Hmm.. I think it also depends on these factors. After all, there are "pluses" and "minuses" above the score

As for similar games, I guess, author tried to follow steps of Coktels' adventures, such as Goblins series, Prophecy and Woodruff, but what he managed to take from them was just pure "find the pixel" aspect, so Samorost and others turned out to be nothing but clicking on hot spots, without thinking, without actually "adventure" or "puzzle" elements. There are many flash games which are based on finding and clicking on hot spots, for fun, so I see nothing original in this one, sorry.

And, wildcat, what's actually so "adventures" about this game, if, like you say, it consists of pure puzzle solving? It should be called a "puzzle/logic" then?
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Old 01-08-2006, 02:55 PM   #33
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I don't really get what you asking me, a lot of adventure games are puzzle logic. The Myst games for example tend to just consist of puzzles in the environment as are the Goblin games yet they are classed as adventures so I see no reason why Samorost 1 or 2 isn't classed as an adventure game.

I could understand why people dispute Farenheit's adventure game status (although I believe it is one mostly) but I don't understand why Samorost 2 isn't an adventure game.
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Old 01-08-2006, 03:14 PM   #34
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Myst had a sub-story told in books and notes, it allowed you to explore the island all the way through, there were characters.
Goblins also have plots, not very imaginative, but neveretheless it's not a "one objective - one goal", especcially the last installment (actually great storyline). They also have inventory, characters to talk and manipulate with.

Samorost consists of jumping from one scene to another, which isn't connected to previous one in any way. The only goal is to finish somehow the screen that lies before you so you can move further, with no particular reason. Even if you call these "puzzles", there's nothing else to call it "an adventure". So, the game is a pure set of puzzles, right?
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Old 01-09-2006, 07:23 AM   #35
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Every game that breaks from convention is going to get arguments about not being a "real" adventure. As always, it depends on how rigid one's own definition of an adventure is.

Samorost 2 has a plot, and it has characters. They're about as basic as they come, but to act like they aren't THERE is doing it a disservice. And while the puzzles in one screen aren't connected to the puzzles in another, they are all connected in service of that basic plot.

You need to rescue your dog. To do that, you need to get past a guard; to get past the guard, you need to find a way to distract him; to distract him, you need to fnd an alternate path; to access the alternate path, you need to... etc. It's absolutely linear, but I can't see how anyone can say it's a nothing but a bunch of randomly connected puzzles.

What Samorost doesn't have is any of the trappings that belong to so many adventures. But if you strip away all the non-interactive elements of most adventures, you'll find something like Samorost underneath. But if it's these things that make an adventure worth playing, then you won't be mislead after reading the review, high score or not.
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Old 01-10-2006, 04:11 AM   #36
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Na.

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Old 01-10-2006, 08:46 AM   #37
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I certainly agree that the review speaks for itself. It wouldn't have been posted otherwise. But it doesn't stand alone. It has actual people attached to it. So I completely disagree that there's no value in dialogue about it if those people are willing. I also disagree that such dialogue in any way weakens the original article. It's not like anything said in the review has been contradicted or retracted here. That would be weakening it.

Would I be comfortable if our reviews were the last word on a matter, with no recourse for debate and dissection? Sure, as I believe they do what we set out to do. But we have a forum, and we have an avenue for discussion, so trying to then stifle it serves no one. If our answers consist of nothing more than "we stand by our review, end of story", there's no point in even pretending we care about feedback.

Sure, at some point even in a thread, you're doing nothing more than repeating yourself, and then it's time to stop. I'd say we've probably neared or reached that ceiling here. But I still consider it a healthy and interesting discussion that ranged from the game itself to editorial policies to the nature of adventure games.
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:05 AM   #38
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:36 AM   #39
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Well, if I wanted to value diplomacy above all else, I could easily tone down some of my remarks. But while I value courtesy and respect, I often find that political correctness-at-all-costs actually hinders genuine dialogue discussion.

Of course I would use more tact with a newcomer, or someone who had begun with a softer approach, but Ariel Type is no stranger (from a forum perspective, that is), and set a very evident benchmark of forthrightness from the get-go. I met that in kind. I don't consider that defensive. Just two people dispensing with BS to get thoughts across. There's nothing personal about a frank disagreement of ideas, though people often choose to take it so. If someone thought my comments were ridiculous, I definitely WOULD hope they'd say so, rather than bending over backwards to assure me how much they value my opinion while secretly thinking I'm an idiot.

As for the I/we thing, well, there's no real way around that, short of logging in with a pseudonym to share my personal opinions with no editor slant. But I choose to engage and mix it up in the community, as do our mods, and figure most people who actually read these forums can figure out which hat I/we are wearing most of the time.
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:41 AM   #40
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