This forum is falling into a “town cop” syndrome.... - Page 2

Ninth · 10-27-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackal

I said this the last time, and I'll say it again. If anyone's goal is REALLY to "create and maintain a better community", we'd love that. And they can start by asking themselves what would help the staff instead of hinder them. Asking or demanding more may sometimes be necessary, but not often.

So. Not only are you questionning my (or Snarky's, or whoever sometimes posts a comment about this kind of issues) will to help this "place" improve, but you're also implying that I've hindered the staff more than I've helped. Nice. And kind of sad too, to realise that I've spend countless hours thinking I was contributing to this community when I really was an hindrance.

***fov*** · 10-27-2005, 08:46 AM

Ninth

Every member of this community helps make it what it is. I think all Jack's saying is that even when people have the best intentions, bringing up and/or constantly revisiting certain issues doesn't turn out to be helpful.

pinkgothic · 10-27-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackal

We do NOT go looking for heads to bust, and we "cops" would like nothing better than to sit around on our asses all day and eat freaking powdered donuts and drinking free coffee.

Doughnuts!

pinkgothic

On a more serious note, I agree with Lucien and Snarky.

Honestly, I've never seen this "syndrome" described anywhere - sure, there are things some moderators do which I'll disagree with, but I've never had the impression a moderator did what they did just to flex muscles. Like Jackal said - situations are often much more complicated than a simple black and white. Decisions are hard to make - and every moderator is human. To deduct that they're looking for an excuse to moderate... I'm sorry, but I view that as rude, though I realise it's not intentional.

So yes, who's hassling whom? I've seen far too many places with the "be respectful to users, regardless what they're doing" policy end up with moderators who're almost scared to lock a thread, because of the responses it'll elict. So, frankly put, I've got good reason to think moderators being respectful changes nothing in regards to how their actions are perceived. People would still complain "Why did you do this?", maybe even more so, because they had the impression they could fling anything they wanted at said moderators and not be punished.

So I guess in summary... it's a lot more complicated than at first glance. Trying to simplify it down to 'you guys are looking for excuses to moderate' doesn't work - I don't know if it's maybe the case every once in a while, but I'm pretty certain if so, it's the minority of events.

...gee, I sound a lot more bitchy than I'm trying to be.

Clearly, we need more cheese.

***Jackal*** · 10-27-2005, 08:57 AM

Unbelievable.

Ninth, I didn't even REMOTELY imply that everything or even MOST of what people offer is a hindrance. I'm saying there's a line where enough becomes too much. There's also a line between constructive and destructive criticism. And some people some times don't respect or even recognize that line. At that point, it starts becoming a hindrance. I think it's pretty obvious when we tell people that line has been crossed. So please stop looking for reason to be offended by my very general explanation.

EDIT:

(This post needed a smiley to be Emily-approved. This forum is so dictatorial!

)

***fov*** · 10-27-2005, 09:26 AM

Thanks. Now where's my donut?

***Jackal*** · 10-27-2005, 09:29 AM

Most of it still seems to be on your face. Powdered do(ugh)nuts tell no lies.

RLacey · 10-27-2005, 09:36 AM

Did you say free coffee? Where do I sign up to become a moderator!

***fov*** · 10-27-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLacey

Did you say free coffee? Where do I sign up to become a moderator!

Don't get too excited. The coffee's not very good.

SakSquash · 10-27-2005, 09:38 AM

You'll never take me alive coppers! NEVER!!

Fum · 10-27-2005, 09:49 AM

Do you really think my post was "destructive criticism," Jackal? I really was thinking this is a discussion that we should have in the open, because of late there have been quite a few cases where it really seemed a wall was being built between the moderators and the regular visitors. There have been many others in the past, but this one is honestly the quote that made me think it'd be helpful to bring this up:

Tobacco when he closed the Fahrenheit=LSL: Magna Cum Laude thread: "SJH: You're not a mod. I'd rather you didn't tell our mods to 'step back and breath.'"

It wasn't the Friends and Fables thread that caused me to write all this up, but this simple reply, because I know I've seen vaguer examples in the past, and this kind of attitude can really divide a community. I've seen it happen before. I think squarejawhero made a really good post that had the potential to bring the thread back on track, but instead of being commended, I thought Tobacco was pretty rude to him. He's not allowed to try and help because he doesn't happen to have moderator privileges? I don't know if there is some history between squarejawhero and Tobacco, but this just really didn't seem helpful at all, and I doubt it made squarejawhero too happy.

I've been visiting this website since long before the extra "s," and even though my post count is low, I've enjoyed reading the threads greatly, and I really put a lot of effort in my original post to try and be constructive.

The truth of the matter is I don't even agree with some of the implied points I made earlier, I just think this is an issue that would benefit all to have it discussed and settled in the open.

***Jackal*** · 10-27-2005, 10:05 AM

Argh!!

I'm not commenting on ANY specific threads, posts, or criticism. Fum, just as your comments are based on some amalgam of vague incidents over time, so too am I generalizing about various threads and feedback. I'm not dissecting what's good or bad in any given case; just trying to establish some basic principles.

I'll say this again: we are totally open to suggestions, we don't think we're perfect, and we are always looking for ways to improve. Most of our "how to improve" discussions happen behind the scenes, but no one should confuse not seeing those with assuming they don't happen at all. I mean, look where this thread is. We've got a forum dedicated to feedback. And another one for site feedback. But saying we're open to feedback is not the same as saying it's not possible to overdo it, or to offer it in a way that ends up being counter-productive. I'm not judging anyone's attempts to do that HERE or in any previous threads. I'm just saying I hope people take that to heart when they DO post.

Also:

Fairygdmther · 10-27-2005, 10:08 AM

When a PM is used to inform a mod/admin, the ensuing discussion is private and must be so. If, however, a verbal handslap is given and the member protests in the forum, then perhaps further discussion should be also in the forum. This way, the member can't cry that "they picked on me". Members can see what was said to the offending member and if it should come to a banning, temporary or otherwise, there will be less hue and cry. Keeping it open also favors the mods in that there can be no accusations of favoritism in treatment if it is all open, nor can there be a charge of ganging up on someone. If you have nothing to hide, then open may be the best way to deal with an issue of rabble-rousing, name-calling or other misbehavior. And it may act as a preventative for others who think that they can get away with it.

I agree that this shouldn't be a democracy - we need the "keepers of the rules" to police the members. Someone has to be in charge, and on a busy forum like this, that is no easy feat! Overall I feel that I agree with 98% of the mods' decisions that I've seen here. Censorship is lower here than anyplace else I've been, and the freedom to say your mind is a great attraction of this forum.

Discussions like this can make the mods feel defensive about their decisions, and the reasoning behind them. They needn't feel that way - they have been entrusted with keeping peace here, and enforcing the rules. If the rules need updating to accommodate this, then do so, to back up the mods. All of the mods here strive to be fair, and intervene only when necessary. They keep the place in a relatively harmonious state, despite the disparate ages, ethnic groups and (lord knows) opinionated discussions. I tip my hat to all the mods/admins - you don't have an easy job here.

Lynsie

Fum · 10-27-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackal

just as your comments are based on some amalgam of vague incidents over time, so too am I generalizing about various threads and feedback.

Cool then, man. I just wanted to clear that up.

***tabacco*** · 10-27-2005, 10:27 AM

I do so love these "Tabacco is an asshole" threads. They're what I live for, really

RLacey · 10-27-2005, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabacco

I do so love these "Tabacco is an asshole" threads. They're what I live for, really

Tobacco
is
an
absolutely great guy, and we love him loads...

squarejawhero · 10-27-2005, 10:30 AM

Just to note, there's no history between Tabacco and I. Just a love for Spaced and Futurama... except maybe the fact he likes iPods, and therefore is wrong.

Fum · 10-27-2005, 10:31 AM

I just re-read my original post (which I wrote at 3:00AM last night, by the way. I'm surprised it turned out to be even marginally coherent), and the main point I want to clear up is that the problems I cited are pertinent to this forum least of all those I visit. I visit this forum - by far - the most regularly because, honestly, it has the best assortment of members AND moderators. I really like everyone here. The reason I'm not taking an hour to write a similar post in the other, more hectic, forums I visit is because I really don't care about them so much.

Fum · 10-27-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabacco

I do so love these "Tabacco is an asshole" threads. They're what I live for, really

tabacco, you're like a beautiful girl with a bad heart; I want to hate you, but then I look at your avatar and see my favorite character from my favorite television show, and I just can't help but love you.

***fov*** · 10-27-2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fum

tabacco, you're like a beautiful girl with a bad heart;

*envisions Doug in a dress*

*giggles*

Lucien21 · 10-27-2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov

Thanks. Now where's my donut?

10-27-2005, 08:57 AM	#24
*Jackal* Hopeful skeptic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 7,743	Unbelievable. Ninth, I didn't even REMOTELY imply that everything or even MOST of what people offer is a hindrance. I'm saying there's a line where enough becomes too much. There's also a line between constructive and destructive criticism. And some people some times don't respect or even recognize that line. At that point, it starts becoming a hindrance. I think it's pretty obvious when we tell people that line has been crossed. So please stop looking for reason to be offended by my very general explanation. EDIT: (This post needed a smiley to be Emily-approved. This forum is so dictatorial! ) Share Share this post on Twitter Last edited by Jackal; 10-27-2005 at 09:18 AM.

10-27-2005, 09:26 AM	#25
*fov* Rattenmonster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 10,404	Thanks. Now where's my donut? Share Share this post on Twitter

10-27-2005, 09:29 AM	#26
*Jackal* Hopeful skeptic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 7,743	Most of it still seems to be on your face. Powdered do(ugh)nuts tell no lies. Share Share this post on Twitter

10-27-2005, 09:36 AM	#27
RLacey The Thread™ will die. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 22,542	Did you say free coffee? Where do I sign up to become a moderator! Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ RLacey \| Killer of the Thread™ I do not change to be perfect. Perfect changes to be me.

10-27-2005, 09:38 AM	#29
SakSquash Banned User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Paltz...for now... Posts: 6,177	You'll never take me alive coppers! NEVER!! Share Share this post on Twitter

10-27-2005, 09:49 AM	#30
Fum Indegan Peningald Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 140	Do you really think my post was "destructive criticism," Jackal? I really was thinking this is a discussion that we should have in the open, because of late there have been quite a few cases where it really seemed a wall was being built between the moderators and the regular visitors. There have been many others in the past, but this one is honestly the quote that made me think it'd be helpful to bring this up: Tobacco when he closed the Fahrenheit=LSL: Magna Cum Laude thread: "SJH: You're not a mod. I'd rather you didn't tell our mods to 'step back and breath.'" It wasn't the Friends and Fables thread that caused me to write all this up, but this simple reply, because I know I've seen vaguer examples in the past, and this kind of attitude can really divide a community. I've seen it happen before. I think squarejawhero made a really good post that had the potential to bring the thread back on track, but instead of being commended, I thought Tobacco was pretty rude to him. He's not allowed to try and help because he doesn't happen to have moderator privileges? I don't know if there is some history between squarejawhero and Tobacco, but this just really didn't seem helpful at all, and I doubt it made squarejawhero too happy. I've been visiting this website since long before the extra "s," and even though my post count is low, I've enjoyed reading the threads greatly, and I really put a lot of effort in my original post to try and be constructive. The truth of the matter is I don't even agree with some of the implied points I made earlier, I just think this is an issue that would benefit all to have it discussed and settled in the open. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Bill Clinton for God, 2008!

10-27-2005, 10:05 AM	#31
*Jackal* Hopeful skeptic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 7,743	Argh!! I'm not commenting on ANY specific threads, posts, or criticism. Fum, just as your comments are based on some amalgam of vague incidents over time, so too am I generalizing about various threads and feedback. I'm not dissecting what's good or bad in any given case; just trying to establish some basic principles. I'll say this again: we are totally open to suggestions, we don't think we're perfect, and we are always looking for ways to improve. Most of our "how to improve" discussions happen behind the scenes, but no one should confuse not seeing those with assuming they don't happen at all. I mean, look where this thread is. We've got a forum dedicated to feedback. And another one for site feedback. But saying we're open to feedback is not the same as saying it's not possible to overdo it, or to offer it in a way that ends up being counter-productive. I'm not judging anyone's attempts to do that HERE or in any previous threads. I'm just saying I hope people take that to heart when they DO post. Also: Share Share this post on Twitter

10-27-2005, 10:08 AM	#32
Fairygdmther Magic Wand Waver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 3,142	When a PM is used to inform a mod/admin, the ensuing discussion is private and must be so. If, however, a verbal handslap is given and the member protests in the forum, then perhaps further discussion should be also in the forum. This way, the member can't cry that "they picked on me". Members can see what was said to the offending member and if it should come to a banning, temporary or otherwise, there will be less hue and cry. Keeping it open also favors the mods in that there can be no accusations of favoritism in treatment if it is all open, nor can there be a charge of ganging up on someone. If you have nothing to hide, then open may be the best way to deal with an issue of rabble-rousing, name-calling or other misbehavior. And it may act as a preventative for others who think that they can get away with it. I agree that this shouldn't be a democracy - we need the "keepers of the rules" to police the members. Someone has to be in charge, and on a busy forum like this, that is no easy feat! Overall I feel that I agree with 98% of the mods' decisions that I've seen here. Censorship is lower here than anyplace else I've been, and the freedom to say your mind is a great attraction of this forum. Discussions like this can make the mods feel defensive about their decisions, and the reasoning behind them. They needn't feel that way - they have been entrusted with keeping peace here, and enforcing the rules. If the rules need updating to accommodate this, then do so, to back up the mods. All of the mods here strive to be fair, and intervene only when necessary. They keep the place in a relatively harmonious state, despite the disparate ages, ethnic groups and (lord knows) opinionated discussions. I tip my hat to all the mods/admins - you don't have an easy job here. Lynsie Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Nothing can bring you peace but yourself. Ralph Waldo Emerson

10-27-2005, 10:27 AM	#34
*tabacco* Friendly Server Admin Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Marin County, CA Posts: 4,087	I do so love these "Tabacco is an asshole" threads. They're what I live for, really Share Share this post on Twitter

10-27-2005, 10:30 AM	#36
squarejawhero Epinionated. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 5,841	Just to note, there's no history between Tabacco and I. Just a love for Spaced and Futurama... except maybe the fact he likes iPods, and therefore is wrong. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Starter of Thread Must Die.

10-27-2005, 10:31 AM	#37
Fum Indegan Peningald Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 140	I just re-read my original post (which I wrote at 3:00AM last night, by the way. I'm surprised it turned out to be even marginally coherent), and the main point I want to clear up is that the problems I cited are pertinent to this forum least of all those I visit. I visit this forum - by far - the most regularly because, honestly, it has the best assortment of members AND moderators. I really like everyone here. The reason I'm not taking an hour to write a similar post in the other, more hectic, forums I visit is because I really don't care about them so much. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Bill Clinton for God, 2008!

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