[BoyToy]

Well, in my opinion, closing threads is bad. It's usually pretty pointless and only serves to complicate matters. It makes people start new threads. Like this.

So temporaryscars did the following:
- he asked a question
- he kept asking for more information
- he ended up behaving like an asshole

Originally Posted by tabacco

Let me explain something to you.
[...] demanding [...inpoliteness...threatening...] demanding

One thing temporaryscars certainly didn't:
- he never demanded an answer

After reading how much you jumped onto that alleged demanding in your closing reply, tabacco, I felt this was worth pointing out.

[tabacco]

You're entitled to your opinion.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

Well, in my opinion, closing threads is bad. It's usually pretty pointless and only serves to complicate matters. It makes people start new threads. Like this.

Have you ever worked as a mod or as an admin? Because if you haven't, chances are you can't know how difficult it can be to deal with rude and insenstive people. Especially if you operate a site with guidelines that entail that people respect each other, including its staff and its policies.

With due respect to your opinions, I think tabs had already answered temps's question here, and Jack answered it here. In other words, temps should already have known that this site, like many other sites out there, is privately owned and funded, and the owner reserves the right not to answer his question.

That tabs reacted to temps's reply might have had more to do with how temps worded it. To me he worded it with a tinge of insinuation, as if he felt he had a right to know (which he didn't, of course). Why didn't he instead ask, "So you don't want to answer that? Cool, I was just curious.". I dunno, maybe tabs wasn't exactly having a good day, but he did at least express that he did not have the financial records, and more importantly, that temps and anyone else didn't have the right to know. Also, temps has been behaving particularly harsh lately (from my observations), so that may have something to do with it. If you really want to know, ask him. Whether he'll answer is up to him.

So temporaryscars did the following:
- he asked a question
- he kept asking for more information
- he ended up behaving like an asshole


One thing temporaryscars certainly didn't:
- he never demanded an answer

After reading how much you jumped onto that alleged demanding in your closing reply, tabacco, I felt this was worth pointing out.

Personally I have no comment on how tabs handled this, but maybe you should have PMed him instead of starting this thread.

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Trep

Have you ever worked as a mod or as an admin? Because if you haven't, chances are you can't know how difficult it can be to deal with rude and insenstive people.

No, I've never moderated a forum. And I'm not saying it's an easy task, but I explained why I think closing threads is pointless (as is deleting and banning, in my opinion). But maybe I'm just too naive.

To the particular matter: I have already stated, that I agree temps was behaving like an asshole. And I can understand if tabs got pissed about that.

With due respect to your opinions, I think tabs had already answered temps's question [...]

Whether the question was answered or not, is besides the point of what I was saying. (And I agree, it was answered, btw.)

Personally I have no comment on how tabs handled this, but maybe you should have PMed him instead of starting this thread.

The incident happened in public. Thus I think opinions about it should be discussed in public.
(With your reasoning, you could also say: 'Why didn't tabs PM temps?')

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

No, I've never moderated a forum. And I'm not saying it's an easy task, but I explained why I think closing threads is pointless (as is deleting and banning, in my opinion). But maybe I'm just too naive.

Why do you think I'm taking a break from modding?

To the particular matter: I have already stated, that I agree temps was behaving like an asshole. And I can understand if tabs got pissed about that.

Good.

Whether the question was answered or not, is besides the point of what I was saying. (And I agree, it was answered, btw.)

Doesn't matter in the end. With due respect to your position, the people who run the site and community still have the final say in how to respond to members. It is, after all, a privately owned site and forum.

BTW, this is my own personal opinion, of course.

(With your reasoning, you could also say: 'Why didn't tabs PM temps?')

(Because temps wanted to discuss his inquiry in public. Why shouldn't tabs respond in public, then? Again, my own personal opinion.)

[Jake]

I don't like closing threads much either, but sometimes it comes down to the choice of leaving someting that is clearly not going to recover to just sit and fester at the top of the forum's post list for days or even weeks, or simply close it and allow people to still read it, but let it scroll off the page into history.

If the issue is super important, the discussion can continue in chit-chat or in PMs, but if the thread is no longer benefitting the community at all and doing nothing but presenting a boiling pile of anger and lameness at the top of the thread list, there's no reason for it to be there.

[Jackal]

I have very little I wish to say about this situation specifically, since clearly there are dynamics at work that go beyond the one thread, but I'll address a few points generally.

Originally Posted by BoyToy

Well, in my opinion, closing threads is bad. It's usually pretty pointless and only serves to complicate matters. It makes people start new threads. Like this.

It's not like we make a habit of randomly closing threads at the drop of a hat. But when we do, it's a pretty clear signal that we DON'T wish for things to continue under public scrutiny. Of course we can't stop people from completely ignoring that and starting new threads - like this - but to say it MAKES people start them is ridiculous. Not everything needs to be a public spectacle.

One thing temporaryscars certainly didn't:
- he never demanded an answer

You're quibbling over semantics. If you ask something repeatedly, it's effectively a demand, because someone has to keep answering. Theoretically, we could just ignore questions, but from where I'm sitting, that's not much of an option. So we take on the added responsibility of communicating as best we can, and it's definitely frustrating when people use that as an invitation to become more aggressive with their questions.

[Glenn Epic]

That's it, I'm closing this thread hehe!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Nice banana!

[BoyToy]

Yes. Jake and Jack, I can imagine it's hard to deal with the dynamics of heated postings. And I see the point Jake has about a closed thread cooling itself down (which is essentially preventing a thread from getting bumped, as has successfully been done in the last Developer Chat). I think all the mods and admins on this forum are, by and large, doing a terrific job!

I just wanted to point out what tabs apparently had overlooked, to prevent a simple misunderstanding from escalating into big proportions.

However, since the thread was closed, I had to start a new one. So I'd say the closing of the thread complicated matters, didn't it?
(And from my limited experience as a forum member, I have seen too many closed or deleted threads leading to only more complicated matters. But it might be different on this forum, so I might have over-simplified.)

Originally Posted by Jackal

It's not like we make a habit of randomly closing threads at the drop of a hat. But when we do, it's a pretty clear signal that we DON'T wish for things to continue under public scrutiny. Of course we can't stop people from completely ignoring that and starting new threads - like this - but to say it MAKES people start them is ridiculous.

Funny I can't hear you laugh.
I have just explained why it MADE me start a new thread. So you're completely missing the point.

[SakSquash]

I'm pretty sure it was a misunderstanding. I kept asking because I didn't think you guys got what I was asking, because it didn't seem like you were answering the question, and not because you didn't want to, but because you didn't understand exactly what I was trying to find out.

I was just asking out of curiosity. It had a lot to do with the advertising that I see here, the "store" you have and I was hoping that you made money off of the site.

I may have acted harshly, but only because I felt I was being wrongly attacked. If you look at a lot of the posts I make, you'll see that i'm usually chilled unless I feel i'm being attacked. Errr...I have to go. So uh..i'll cut this short.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

LOL!! You're a live one, aren't you, temps?

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Nice banana!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

LMFAO!!!

Marry me, bitch!

[mag]

Regardless of that particular thread with temp, I'd definitely say it's worth having a public discussion on closing threads in general because it's something about this forum I don't understand at all.

I mean, sure, like Trep says, it's a privately owned site, and you can close any thread you want. You can also run naked down the highway while waving a Nazi flag and singing "I Wish I was in Dixie," but that doesn't mean you should. Saying, "The mods can close whatever thread they want," isn't particularly helpful. And that's the problem. Because as far as I can tell, there's really not any rhyme or reason behind the closing of threads other than that. I've seen people post things way worse than what temp said and go completely unchecked. And I've seen threads that had absolutely no reason to be closed that were closed merely because the mod deemed the discussion to no longer be of any value. It's completely arbitrary. And that's not really conducive to open discussion.

Just my opinion on the matter. You can go ahead and close the thead now.

*disappears back into the shadows*

[pinkgothic]

To mag, and others - moderators tend to be in place to 'feel' a situation out a bit. They're not always right in their interpretation of how a situation is escalating, how many people are offended by something, that sort of thing - but they're there to add subjectivity, because if subjectivity and empathy weren't needed, they'd simply be replaced by programs.

I think the worst thing someone can do is publically accuse a moderator of having closed a thread in jest or without reason. That's unfair, in my eyes. And I have to completely agree with Trep that this should have been taken to PM - sorry BoyToy.

As for locking or not locking threads in general - that's mostly what my first paragraph was aiming to explain somewhat. As I see it, every moderator here has good intentions. If you find a thread is locked without reason, try taking it up with the moderator (in PM). Public accusations... well, frankly put, they tend to be ignored. For good reasons.

I could go on about this also because it's a bit of a personal soap box, but I'd probably just end up repeating myself in slight variants, so I'll leave it at that.

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

moderators tend to be in place to 'feel' a situation out a bit. [...] they're there to add subjectivity

Well, I strongly disagree. It's not necessery to add subjectivity to a thread, cause it's already there. In each and every post.

I think the worst thing someone can do is publically accuse a moderator of having closed a thread in jest or without reason. That's unfair, in my eyes.

I don't think anybody has done that.
I have pointed out (and not accused) to the moderator, that he seemingly misunderstood something. What's unfair about that?

And on a more general note: If it shouldn't be possible to factually criticise moderators, we were in trouble. It's not like moderaters are uber-humans, who'd never make mistakes. So it's only for everyone's best, if they get a wide spectrum of feedback.
(Bashing or insulting moderators is a different thing. But that applies to anyone, not just moderators.)

And I have to completely agree with Trep that this should have been taken to PM

Why?

As for locking or not locking threads in general - that's mostly what my first paragraph was aiming to explain somewhat. As I see it, every moderator here has good intentions. If you find a thread is locked without reason, try taking it up with the moderator (in PM). Public accusations... well, frankly put, they tend to be ignored. For good reasons.

For what reasons?

You know, the problem is: Closure of a thread is a public thing. A lot of people are witnessing it. Also the thread contents itself are witnessed by a lot of people. So, it should either be possible to explain the closure publically, or not be done at all in the first place. (Otherwise it can sometimes even appear as if something has been tried to hide.)

Usually good moderators will explain the closure in a final post within the thread in question anyway (as has been attempted by tabs in the given case).

So, I really don't understand some people's fear of publicity.
Admittedly, it's never nice to be criticised in public, I can understand this. But that seems to be more down to a question of vanity, and I don't think vanity is a good property for a moderator (in that role as such). (Genrally there's not much to say against vanity. )

[Jackal]

Pinkgothic may have resisted a soapbox, but I'm going to climb on mine now.

Originally Posted by BoyToy

I have just explained why it MADE me start a new thread. So you're completely missing the point.

I didn't miss your point, which was quite basic. I'm disagreeing with it fundamentally. This thread exists because you chose to start one despite our obvious wishes. It's a matter of responsibility. The act of closing threads may (and often does, as you say) RESULT in new ones being opened, but it doesn't CAUSE people do anything. That's the distinction I want clear here. I exchanged PM's on this topic with a forumite who apparently didn't feel this overwhelming compulsion to make it a public issue. You, however, did.

I will say this (in general, not just to BoyToy). The sense of entitlement to have a say in everything we do, or analyze and dissect all our decisions is the surest way to make all of us involved really not give a crap anymore. That's not a threat, not an attack. Just a fact. So if that's the goal of threads such as these, it's working.

Originally Posted by mag

I'd definitely say it's worth having a public discussion on closing threads in general because it's something about this forum I don't understand at all.

To put it bluntly, what makes your understanding our concern? It's not enough that everyone works so hard trying to maintain the best environment for everybody? Now we're accountable to the curiosity of its members? And we must do so publicly? As I said, there are private means of communication ALSO provided by this forum. Some people are respectful enough of the staff to use it.

Saying, "The mods can close whatever thread they want," isn't particularly helpful.

Helpful? Helpful?? Why is it us who's helping YOU? All you need to do is come and benefit from what the staff does day in and day out. What more help do you need? If there are a few random things that happen over time that make less sense or your disagree with, there are STILL options for you to inquire. But this "the public has a right to know" crap just doesn't fly. If people made as much effort helping US as demanding we offer more help, we'd all be a lot better off.

Having said that, I will make SOME effort to actually answer your question. First of all, the above quote is supposed to work hand in hand with some very basic observation. We clearly do NOT go running around closing threads with reckless abandon. So "whenever we want" is followed by "but we'd rather never close ANY!" We only ever will when the mod/admin decides enough is enough in any given situation.

Of course there's some "arbitrary" aspects to this. Even if a single person did it, there would be. Spread the responsibility to upwards of 5 or 6 people and it's guaranteed to have some differences in approach and tolerance. Add to that that we're on online community, because that demands that mods use their own discretion and authority. We don't have the time or ability to sit around in the back room having votes and strategy meetings in the spur of the moment. So if our tolerance shows variation from Trep to Emily to Voodoo, etc., that's to be expected, not cause surprise.

Are there some inconsistencies? Yes. Do we make mistakes sometimes? Probably. Do we flaunt our power in your faces and make rigid and unfair demands? Hardly. Our "policy" is to essentially allow everyone all the rope they want. But when someone strangles themselves or the thread with the rope we provide, we'll step in.

In this particular case, I guess "worse" depends on where you're coming from. Spitting in the face of authority is considered pretty bad around here. Regardless of temp's original intent, he escalated it to the point of abuse of the senior site admin. Try that with a cop and see where that gets you. Yeah, that'll happen when you insult those who are there for your benefit.

I realize this entire post sounds defensive. But that's only because of the nature of the thread. To end on a more productive note, we DO invite questions and input from forum members, and WILL discuss matters to a degree we think is reasonable, and we TRY to provide a positive, constructive environment. We do what we can and improve as we're able, and learn as we go. If that's not enough, then don't expect us to be overly sympathetic.

[SakSquash]

I dunno, I gotta agree with boy-toy on this one. I'm not exactly with Jackals attidute of "this forum belongs to us and we don't care you YOU!" Though, he has every right to be that way, since he pays the bills. If I had a board, i'd want it to be a democracy, where people could openly lodge complaints against those who run it, including me (ya know, since it would be mine and all). But, in the end, they pay the piper, and what they say goes, and there's probably not much we can do about except put up and shutup or leave. Still, I think it would be a lot better to run it in a democratic way, but that's just one man's opinion.

I certainly think this is a topic worth talking about in the open and it in no way is disrespectful to the mods. But again, that's just me, and I could be wrong. I'm only mortal.

[Jackal]

Good Lord, if that's all you read in my post, then that explains a thing or two. What you apparently seem determined to overlook is that everyone here busts their asses day in and day out BECAUSE we "care about you". When even THAT isn't enough, complaints just come off like being spoiled brats who think of nothing but themselves. That's the only thing we stop caring about.