[Elton28]

Hi guys.

This week on the news, this country has been privy to some of the most disturbing and disrespectful images that I have personally ever seen.

Last week, a funeral courtege was "attacked" by a large group of "yobs" or teenagers.

Today, in a town called Bolton in Lancashire, a cemetery was desecrated again by a large group of yobs without thought or respect. Gravestones pushed over, flowers strewn around, decorations thrown up into trees. One was of a large cross of a two year old child who had died of leaukaemia, which was found between the bows of a large tree.

I am absolutely disgusted tbh. I can almost say that I am ashamed to live in a country where this now happens all too often. A Police officer was also attacked when he was trying to arrest a driver.

What is this country coming to?? Who is to blame for these incidents and the yob culture that is now fruiting all over "yob Britain"?

I don't even know if the Government are doing all they can to prevent it. Putting Community Support Officers on the streets is all well and good, as it shows a presence, but they cannot arrest, they have to call for backup.

Soon, and it may sound far fetched, we'll not be able to walk out of our own front doors for fear of being intimidated or worse, by todays teenagers.

They have no respect whatsoever.

IMO the perpetrators should be caught and given the harshest sentence for the offence, not just given caution and a slap on the wrist.

Bring back National Service please.

A seriously disgruntled Elton

[squarejawhero]

I WOULD call on the fact that many teenagers are OK, but I'm in complete agreeance with you. I was assaulted some years back by a group of kids in Wimbledon of all places, all hoodies and caps, beer and fags. There's this culture which has overtaken schools and I see them all the time. When I was a teenager, I was a bit of a rebel, my bro' even more so, but we had limits, and the limits seem to be edging out further and further each year. And the further we get into this, the harder it's going to be to get back. Call them chavs, kevs, whatever, they're a problem and society's gone soft on them for fear of political correctness.

If the roots of the problems are truly in their family situations, then lets see some movement by schools and local authorities to sort that out too.

Grr. I'm rambling a little incoherently but the latest wave of teenage yob culture really gets to me. I see too many kids going around acting "tough" more than ever. Teenagers have always been rowdy, but the level of violence and disrespect towards others has never been higher than it is now.

[feisar]

Here are some quotes from a topic in another forum I visit which say what I think better than I could type it:

"This week it seems Britain's politicians and media have started saying every one off extraordinary crime is a daily occurance, which is actually total bullshit."

"Thing is this shit works and it makes me sick. Apparently every street corner now has a gang of youths burning old people. It is true that the bling culture which has actually been PUSHED by the media in so many ways has formed a certain type of attitude ammoungst certain groups but the fear they are once again trying to create is total nonsense.

What baffles me is that it is so blatant and yet people still believe it.

Its funny because I used to be a lot fairer to people whereas over the past 5 years my opinion that 75% of people are ****ing idiots is compounded every single day."

"It's just the politicans trying to get us whipped up into a state of fear and paranoia so they can more easily chip away at our liberties and freedom. I don't want to live life like that and I think the media and politicians are behaving grossly irresponsibly."

"'Binge drinking' really gets on my tits. If I go out of an evening, I don't see any young people doing anything I didn't do 15 years ago. It's not a new fad, it's just young people being young people.

It's like car-jacking. There was all that shit in the papers about it a couple of years ago and it was made out to be some new crime wave. Yet the police said there were no more incidents of it now than before, it's just that it's been splashed all over the papers so people think it's a new thing."

[Wormsie]

I agree with the general idea of feisar's quotes.

[squarejawhero]

I concur that the media are spinning things along with the politicians, but if I didn't see overly rowdy/antisocial behaviour as MUCH as I do now NOT ON TELEVISION, IN MY AREA then I'd agree. I'm not 90, I'm 28 and I don't remember anyone I knew as a teenager or anyone in my then area, the troublesome Northampton at the time, being as so outwardly aggressive as teenagers, here at least, are now.

[Erwin_Br]

This seems to be an international trend, as I can tell about similar experiences in my country.

--Erwin

Hm. I find it surprising that this stuff isn't happening in the land of liberty.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

Hm. I find it surprising that this stuff isn't happening in the land of liberty.

Perhaps this is because we give our teenagers machine guns and send them into other countries to unleash their aggression? Just a guess...

[DustCropper]

This reminds me of a quote:

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.

That's what Cicero said, sometime before 43 B.C.

Kids will be kids, just as they always have been.

I agree that what these specific children did was wrong, but I don't want to jump to the conclusion that we're witnessing some kind of degradation of society...

[Supreme Goddess]

I was a teenager in the 70s and I would cross the road to avoid walking through groups of 10 yr old lads - just in case. It was a relatively new thing back then.

I think the rot starts when they get 'community service' instead of real punishment.

I think they need to be shamed by their actions/punishment. Bring back discipline in schools.

The real cause of family dysfunction is despair and a sense of hopelessness brought on by unemployment. All our previous generations had jobs. There is a connection with self-esteem/jealousy/anger. Time for the politicians to face the fact that importing cheap stuff from China actually destroys our own societies. I shall stop now before I get on my soapbox.

[squarejawhero]

Hi Caroline.

[feisar]

Originally Posted by Supreme Goddess

I was a teenager in the 70s and I would cross the road to avoid walking through groups of 10 yr old lads - just in case. It was a relatively new thing back then.

I think the rot starts when they get 'community service' instead of real punishment.

I think they need to be shamed by their actions/punishment. Bring back discipline in schools.

The real cause of family dysfunction is despair and a sense of hopelessness brought on by unemployment. All our previous generations had jobs. There is a connection with self-esteem/jealousy/anger. Time for the politicians to face the fact that importing cheap stuff from China actually destroys our own societies. I shall stop now before I get on my soapbox.

hmm.. in the UK in the 70's there were riots in the streets, huge gang fights and large council estates in UK cities were total no go areas (eg. such as what the film football factory is based on). None of that goes on to the same extent now.

Most of the time with the "youths on street corners" thing its a group of children with nowhere else to go messing around as kids do and people being afraid of them (thanks to the media) when they actually have the right to be there and arent doing anything wrong. Are children/teens not allowed the same basic rights? What do you propose? Locking up everyone under 30?

This kind of media fear is dangerous. Ive recently read a book by Margaret Atwood called "The Handmaids Tale" which is definatly worth a read if your worried about things like this.

In terms of unemployment, its lower now than it ever has been (UK speaking), more people are in work than ever before and the standard of education has greatly improved. 30 years ago people wouldve left school early or not gone at all and be left with no real education, respect or place in society. These days those kind of people get qualifacations, careers, are made to stay in education and can read/write/contribute to society.

Importing has increased our wealth, variety, control etc.. It allows the leisure & service industry to take prominence. People to get higher paid jobs and better working conditions usually at the expense of the third world. A lot of the money from importing comes back anyway as the technology, design and ownership is still in the hands of the western nations. Its just the costly manafacturing bit thats been outsourced.

There has always been a tendency in this country (and probably in other places) to look back on the past as a golden era, where there were no problems at all and how we should return to that. This is usually because people have a habit of glossing over the past and not noticing things when they were younger (i sure didnt. Things like the faulklands war, poll tax riots, being arrested for being gay etc.. i didnt learn about till i was older despite them going on when I was growing up). Its better to look forward than dwell on some make believe time.

[pinkgothic]

I have to agree with your general disgruntlement (is that a word?) about teenagers these days, noting, of course, that there are exceptions, thankfully, but sadly they do seem to be exceptions.

However, I don't watch the news enough to know about the exact nature of disrespect that happens, for example, in this country. What I do know, however, and which has already appalled me enough, is that I lived in South Africa for nine years and went to school there before finishing my first level of education in germany... but when I started here, ninth grade, I was absolutely APPALLED by the class's behaviour. They had no respect whatsoever from the teachers. Some of them made it very clear that it was their parents paying the teachers and that those parents could be played just right to complain. What the?! And when I was trying to keep the contents of an exam to myself, my neighbour trying to peek, the class later more or less accused me of being asocial.

If that's being asocial, then I'm proud to be it.

But anyway, the gist is, I could not stand my peers, I'm glad I got a basic understanding of respect back into the class room and took some power from those slanderous beasts who were considered 'class leaders' back then. Jeez.

At any rate, I've very little faith in children these days. But it's not a direct connection that I make. I think a big problem is that people do not bother to think about the responsibility of children. A lot of people just go and breed without realising they'll actually have to raise what they've created, put time and effort into it, et cetera. And that is what disgusts me.

I know, for example, I would not have the time or money to support a child. Assuming now I'd like the buggers when they're small (I detest babies), I'd still not get one - what type of a mother would I be to create this poor little thing in need of affection, and then just seat it infront of the TV?

...as you can no doubt see, I could rant on about this for a while. My point is that the trend, IMO, is worrying. I'm just hoping the generation will do itself in enough to notice how irresponsible and stupid they are (pardon the wording), since their parents can't teach them responsibility, so life will just have to do...

*forces self to stop typing*

[Erwin_Br]

I say people should first own a parenting license before they're allowed to procreate.

--Erwin

[Ninja Dodo]

On a somewhat related note, there was a woman on the news tonight with three daughters that had each become pregant at ages 12, 14 and 16 respectively... wow. Mom serves as babysitter while they go to school. Yeah that's really gonna work. Go parents!

For the moment (just one more week, haha!) I'm living in what is probably the UK capital of so-called "yob-culture"...

I was walking down the street one afternoon and suddenly this kid on a bike starts coming in my direction (I was walking next to the pavement) and before I can decide what to make of this the kid slaps me right in the face for no reason in particular and drives past...

I just stood there dumbfounded.

Yep.

I love this place.

[Curt]

Whereabouts in SA did you live, Pinkgothic? My family emigrated to SA from Birmingham back in the early 80's so I lived there for nearly 4 1/2 years and finished school there. We lived in Boksburg, close to Jo'burg.

Feis, I do disagree with you as there has definitely been a steady increase in street yob culture in the UK over the past 20 years. Kids still get up to mischief like they always have but now it's the more aggressive, anti-social and disrespectful nature of the mischief that worries many. I moved to an area called Edgbaston in the mid-80's after returning from SA and already there was a noticable change in the way kids acted. My parents still live there and the decline in social behaviour over those 20 years has been dramatic, and this DESPITE much lower unemployment and higher overall living standards.

The same pattern is happening here in Munich too, albeit much farther behind and more social still atm (you can feel a lot safer walking around Munich centre at midnight than walking around Birmingham centre at midnight - Fact. That doesn't mean that nothing bad could happen - just makes it less likely) . But in schools much of the discipline which I recall is virtually gone. Schools in SA were far more disciplinarian than the UK and Germany are now, and the overall behaviour was much better for it. The same situation was occuring in the UK (at the school I was at anyway) back in the 70's, discipline was greater and behaviour mirrored this.

I think if you want to poin the finger at any part of the media, point it at all these weird, anti-social, do-anything-for-money programs that appear on channels like MTV nowadays that kids tend to want to follow. There is far more disgusting behaviour visually penetrating the brains of societies young through tv nowadays than would ever have been allowed back when I was a kid/teenager.

And to blame teachers, politicians, parents, police or any other group solely is the largest cop-out of all (but something that we often read "Oh, it's the teachers faults" or "parenting gone bad"). There are many sources for the decline in social behaviour and it will only ever get fixed by everybody working together and learning from the past.

I've said this many times before and on many topics (it just seems to fit logically), but ultimately sometimes in order to move forward it is sometimes necessary to take a step back. I'm not a big fan of censorship where adults are concerned, but it appears that in the media at least, the censors who control what can influence our children aren't quite doing their jobs at the moment.

Ninja Dodo refers to the 3 sisters with their babies. I read about that yesterday on the BBC site and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. You only have to switch on one of the many channels aimed at teenagers and sure enough you'll find an almost constant barrage of sexuallity and promiscuity - and it's all portrayed as cool and the thing to be. Many will say it's the parents fault for allowing their kids to watch such programmes. Well, my Mother and Father both worked back in the 70's and early 80's when I was at the age these 3 kids are now, so they couldn't have been there to control what I was wathcing that could influence my behaviour - the big difference was that such corruptable programmes didn't exist on daytime tv back then.

It doesn't surprise me when younger folks like Feisar who never experienced the 70's use the bad examples of back then to justify how things haven't apparently changed but unfortunately that is no proof. Only experiencing with your own eyes can really tell you how things have changed and believe me they have. Sure the vast majority of kids today are still good. But the numbers with anti-social behaviour ARE on the increase and the manner of that anti-social behaviour has become more violent unfortunately.

I could go on and on but I won't because I know those that don't want to believe what I am saying won't be convinced. I'll leave you with just one thing to bear in mind - there is now a massive number of security cameras up in most British cities and yet violent bahaviour is still on the increase. Maybe it's not the security aspect that needs dealing with here as a deterrent, maybe it's the punishment?

[squarejawhero]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

On a somewhat related note, there was a woman on the news tonight with three daughters that had each become pregant at ages 12, 14 and 16 respectively... wow. Mom serves as babysitter while they go to school. Yeah that's really gonna work. Go parents!

For the moment (just one more week, haha!) I'm living in what is probably the UK capital of so-called "yob-culture"...

I was walking down the street one afternoon and suddenly this kid on a bike starts coming in my direction (I was walking next to the pavement) and before I can decide what to make of this the kid slaps me right in the face for no reason in particular and drives past...

I just stood there dumbfounded.

Yep.

I love this place.

You were "happy slapped". No doubt your picture is circulating around estates everywhere.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Curt

Whereabouts in SA did you live, Pinkgothic?

Various places. Cape Town's Camps Bay, Cape Town's Bantry Bay, Constantia, Johannesburg and Constantia again, all the while having a weekend house in Jackalsfontein near Darling. And I'm sure I missed one. My parents never really felt settled anywhere, so we kept moving. Kind of why I'm hesistant to ever move again for the rest of my life. I'm sure I've moved around more often than most people do in their entire life... *gah* Parents. *grin*

Originally Posted by Curt

We lived in Boksburg, close to Jo'burg.

Was crime a problem for you guys? Jo'burg's always been the center of crime, as far as I felt it. Did you have that impression, too?

Originally Posted by Curt

I think if you want to point the finger at any part of the media, point it at all these weird, anti-social, do-anything-for-money programs that appear on channels like MTV nowadays that kids tend to want to follow. There is far more disgusting behaviour visually penetrating the brains of societies young through tv nowadays than would ever have been allowed back when I was a kid/teenager.

I was going to point out that TV does not shape people, lack of other interaction does, but you've put a pretty big "if" into the beginning of the paragraph I missed when I first read it.

Mind you, I do not believe lacking morals or social knowledge is what is inheritely bad at all. Not only do we have laws that any sane/intelligent person will have to adhere out of sheer self-interest, but even if they weren't in place, the concept of responsibility does not need morals... it's a question of cause and effect. If someone's going to start a fight, it only follows that the person being attacked will keep a grudge, et cetera. Granted, not everyone is that smart, to deduct that from a simple concept, and maybe those people would really need to be kept away from MTV. I don't know.

Point being, I think the concept of "responsibility" is a lot more important than many other "social" concepts.

Originally Posted by Curt

And to blame teachers, politicians, parents, police or any other group solely is the largest cop-out of all (but something that we often read "Oh, it's the teachers faults" or "parenting gone bad"). There are many sources for the decline in social behaviour and it will only ever get fixed by everybody working together and learning from the past.

Possibly, but I'll still blame parents. There will always be problem-children that parents couldn't get their grip on if they tried, and it's true that it then becomes a general social obligation to fix it, but I'm going to assume that's an exception. Some sanity in raising children would be nice, and I've not been seeing much of it lately.

Just to continue the thought: I don't tend to respect people because I assume people deserve my respect, but because I know that until I know the person in question better, I won't know if they deserve it, and it's best to respect them first. I was taught the concept of responsibility, I know that my actions cause reactions - I'm an egoist, and I will try to minimize negative reactions. I'm sorry, but I cannot understand folks who will be as self-destructive not to adhere to that simply concept. And the concept is simple. It's something that you're taught at a very early age. I'm very fortunate that my parents, in all their liberalism (they never tried to educate me of anything bar for that, they just watched me grow and be a sponge), taught me that concept. Accordingly, that is why I believe that it is the parents, primarily, that are to blame.

[Hammerite]

The worst things about chavs (and I should know, i live near cannock) is that they never know that they're chavs and call other people chavs without ever realising that they are chavs themselves... it really depresses me.