[Mattsius]

Originally Posted by mag

Anybody who thinks that liberating the Iraqi people is the real reason Bush went to war with Iraq obviously hasn't been paying attention.

Indeed. OIL, OIL and OIL was the reason.



Oh, and Bush is a religious moron.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by mag

Anybody who thinks that liberating the Iraqi people is the real reason Bush went to war with Iraq obviously hasn't been paying attention.

No, but it's definitely a plus. The real reason was that based on all intelligence, the U.S., Britain, and others, believed there was a link between bin Laden and Saddam, and that Saddam had WMDs. The result of the mission, regardless of what was or wasn't discovered, was the liberation of the Iraqi people. Oil is NOT the reason. Anyone who thinks that is allowing themselves to be brainwashed by the liberal media and Michael Moore.

[Wormsie]

NOW this is getting interesting.

[log p]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

but isn't it sort of a long shot when the guy looks like Herman Munster?). .

yeah...i think elections are mainly decided on looks and charisma these days...sorry bob dole, you were screwed from the beginning

[log p]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I've never got this you get what you deserve mentality. That's a kind of new "survival of the fittest thing". You know, the thing that existed before little things like civilisation, democracy, freedom, philosophy, etc, ... were invented. People should get what they need, period. Then when everybody has what they need, then we can start wondering about rewarding efforts.

social darwinism is a big part of this country's rich history...i dont think the founding fathers would have argued...originally the people werent even allowed to vote for state senators...men like madison saw the average commoner as basically an idiot that shouldnt be completely free to voice his opinion

[log p]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Ooh, my little niece just came home from Walmart with my copy after I gave her money to get it. I just started it, and she and my littler nephew are laughing their asses because I keep kicking those chickens. Weirder still, the chickens are actually following me after I kick them! :eek:

Back on topic: Bush is a moron.

nice segue...off topic: are you enjoying fable thus far?...on topic: im gonna go smoke some herb and contemplate peace in the middle east

[mag]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

No, but it's definitely a plus. The real reason was that based on all intelligence, the U.S., Britain, and others, believed there was a link between bin Laden and Saddam, and that Saddam had WMDs. The result of the mission, regardless of what was or wasn't discovered, was the liberation of the Iraqi people. Oil is NOT the reason. Anyone who thinks that is allowing themselves to be brainwashed by the liberal media and Michael Moore.

I didn't get that from Michael Moore. I got it from the report written by a neoconservative think tank including several high ranking members of the Bush administration that was published a year before 9/11 and talks about the need for the United States to take over Iraq in order to assert American dominance around the world. I got it from the several Bush administration officials who have since stepped forward and told the media that Iraq was Bush's target from day one.

There was absolutely no indication of any link between al Qaida and Hussein (the two were archenemies) or that Hussein had any weapons of mass destruction (the only such weapons he ever had were sold to him by the U.S., and they all went bad years ago). So maybe you're right. Maybe Bush wasn't lying about his motivations for going to war with Iraq. In that case he's just incompetent. Because if he really believed all of that crap that spews out of his mouth, he would have to be incompetent. So those are your choices--evil or incompetence. Either way, it doesn't look too good for Bush.

mag

EDIT - Oh yeah. And if you actually believe that fairy tale about the "liberal" media, you obviously haven't turned on the news lately.

[Kolzig]

Originally Posted by mag

I didn't get that from Michael Moore. I got it from the report written by a neoconservative think tank including several high ranking members of the Bush administration that was published a year before 9/11 and talks about the need for the United States to take over Iraq in order to assert American dominance around the world. I got it from the several Bush administration officials who have since stepped forward and told the media that Iraq was Bush's target from day one.

There was absolutely no indication of any link between al Qaida and Hussein (the two were archenemies) or that Hussein had any weapons of mass destruction (the only such weapons he ever had were sold to him by the U.S., and they all went bad years ago). So maybe you're right. Maybe Bush wasn't lying about his motivations for going to war with Iraq. In that case he's just incompetent. Because if he really believed all of that crap that spews out of his mouth, he would have to be incompetent. So those are your choices--evil or incompetence. Either way, it doesn't look too good for Bush.

mag

EDIT - Oh yeah. And if you actually believe that fairy tale about the "liberal" media, you obviously haven't turned on the news lately.

So true.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by mag

I got it from the report written by a neoconservative think tank including several high ranking members of the Bush administration that was published a year before 9/11 and talks about the need for the United States to take over Iraq in order to assert American dominance around the world. I got it from the several Bush administration officials who have since stepped forward and told the media that Iraq was Bush's target from day one.

B.....S......

Originally Posted by mag

Either way, it doesn't look too good for Bush.

Except in the polls... And yes, I know you already know that...I just like rubbing it in.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

B.....S......

ummm....okay. But you do realize that that's not actually a counterargument, right? You see, in logic the "nuh-uh!" approach is not typically considered a valid argument.

mag

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by mag

ummm....okay. But you do realize that that's not actually a counterargument, right? You see, in logic the "nuh-uh!" approach is not typically considered a valid argument.

Of course I do. But I'm not arguing either. I simply said it's B.S., which it is. I don't need to argue. When my man is down big in the polls, then I'll argue. Right now I feel confident about the election, so there's no need. My views don't really matter, nor do yours...because neither you or I will be changing ANYTHING. Actually, you might because PA is a battleground state, is it not? I wish you luck winning the state for Kerry with the deciding vote... I, for one, am powerless. My state will go Bush, even if that WASN'T what I wanted.

Anyway, to clarify ever so slightly, these people in the administration who have spoken out against Bush have motives that neither you, nor I, can pretend to understand. Most people have motives that are known only to themselves and a few others. Take, for instance, the latest forged documents about Bush. The guy who it was traced back to lives 20 miles from the Kinko's where they were faxed from, and in the past he has compared Bush to Hitler! Ok so...gee...what was his motive? To smear Bush. So then CBS airs his forgery, and now they are in hot water. That's just the way it goes... Vicious circles and shady motives...

[Titan]

Ninth, so you don't see how anyone could vote right. Intelligence has been likened to the ability to entertain an idea or viewpoint without accepting it as accurate. You are obviously not in the entertainment business.

It is strange to hear a Frenchman discuss balls. If America is the new evil empire then France is the leader of wuss nation.

It is not that morons deserve what they get, in fact they get more now than they ever did before. My point is that there has to be a balance to what limit non-morons will work to advantage both themselves and morons. At some point the motivation for this work dwindles and everyone suffers. You're just espousing the utopian Marxist view of 'to each what they need, from each what they can give'.

Ninja, Re: bombing the middle east. I'm talking hypothetically 30 or 40 years from now when 100,000 may die in a terrorist attack, oil has the same importance as today, and the U.S. has the capability to destroy the culture breeding the terrorist without destroying the oil and delivery infrastructure. A lot of ifs and probably not likely, but rationally it may be in this country's best interest.

mag, indeed there is a fine line between courage and hubris and I don't disagree with either label applied to Iraq or Bush. What Iraq is proving to me is that whether the no war/no response of peaceniks or the conventional war response of Bush is employed, we're in for a long twilight time of terrorism. Middle Eastern culture is antithetical to democracy and considering the zealotry of the dominant face of their religion, perhaps this is not a bad thing.

[Wormsie]

This thread is scary.

[Mattsius]

Originally Posted by Titan

Middle Eastern culture is antithetical to democracy and considering the zealotry of the dominant face of their religion, perhaps this is not a bad thing.

The problem is that Bush is also too religious. To mix religion with politics is never a good thing, but it seems to be quite common in the US, especially in the southern states. Bush seems to think that he is a Messiah or something and, to me, that's scary.

Originally Posted by deadworm222

NOW this is getting interesting. _

Originally Posted by deadworm222

This thread is scary.

It changes fast, doesn't it.

[Ninja Dodo]

and the U.S. has the capability to destroy the culture breeding the terrorist without destroying the oil and delivery infrastructure. A lot of ifs and probably not likely, but rationally it may be in this country's best interest.

That reasoning is a sign of a fundamental lack of understanding of where terrorism comes from.

I'll give you a clue... It's not a geographical area.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by Titan

It is strange to hear a Frenchman discuss balls. If America is the new evil empire then France is the leader of wuss nation.

A "wuss nation" who demands proof before they agree to having thousands of innocents killed because of some non-existent ties with a terrorist organization or non-existent weapons of mass destruction. The US and Britain lied to the world. France, Germany and a few other countries didn't believe in the lie, and they dared to stand up and say so.

Iraq, right now, is a catastrophe. Despite all the bad things about Saddam Hussein, Iraq would have been MUCH better off with him in power than they are right now. And it's probably just going to get worse.

[log p]

maybe its going back too far and all that other, but does anyone currently residing in the U.S. realize without the French aid (finanical and military) it is quite conceivable a little something called the american revolution would have been won by the british and america as we know it would have ceased to exist?...anyway...i wonder what you european folk think when these fearsome texans (pissing down their pantaloons at the prospect of actually fighting anyone with more than words, much like that lovable demon spawn dubya that originates from the hellhole) go criticizing the rest of the world with their cocksure, dick-waving bravado that has been earned through generations of cowering in fear

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by log p

maybe its going back too far and all that other, but does anyone currently residing in the U.S. realize without the French aid (finanical and military) it is quite conceivable a little something called the american revolution would have been won by the british and america as we know it would have ceased to exist?...anyway...i wonder what you european folk think when these fearsome texans (pissing down their pantaloons at the prospect of actually fighting anyone with more than words, much like that lovable demon spawn dubya that originates from the hellhole) go criticizing the rest of the world with their cocksure, dick-waving bravado that has been earned through generations of cowering in fear

LOL! I love it! How "emotionless" you truly aren't. Ha ha. Actually, you seem to be a slave to your emotions... They got a bit out of control and took you for a ride in that bit, making you look pretty pathetic in the process. Frankly, the pride Texans have in their state is DESPISED by many Americans, particularly liberal ones, who don't believe in pride in any form, especially not in their own country. And what's this about "pissing down their pantaloons"? LOL! Great line, if completely stupid. But that's what makes it funny. It's liberals that back down from fights beyond words, let's get that straight. I have never backed down from a fight in my life, and looking back on Texas history...the LAST thing I see is "generations of cowering in fear." I'm sorry that Texans are confident while the rest of the nation wallows in fear of Bush detonating the world...you'll get over it someday.

[log p]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

LOL! I love it! How "emotionless" you truly aren't. Ha ha. Actually, you seem to be a slave to your emotions... They got a bit out of control and took you for a ride in that bit, making you look pretty pathetic in the process. Frankly, the pride Texans have in their state is DESPISED by many Americans, particularly liberal ones, who don't believe in pride in any form, especially not in their own country. And what's this about "pissing down their pantaloons"? LOL! Great line, if completely stupid. But that's what makes it funny. It's liberals that back down from fights beyond words, let's get that straight. I have never backed down from a fight in my life, and looking back on Texas history...the LAST thing I see is "generations of cowering in fear." I'm sorry that Texans are confident while the rest of the nation wallows in fear of Bush detonating the world...you'll get over it someday.

just kidding...wocka wocka...perhaps i was unfair and biased (read: i was being so)...just wanted to show the shoe's on the other foot thing, from titan attacking the french having never been to france most likely or knowing nothing of its glorious history...so i tried to do the same applied to texas, hope it worked...i believe i have a few frenchmen among my ancestors by the by...i guess im truly sullied consequently...and no...i doubt any of us will "get over" four more years of bush for decades at least, though i readily admit its probably gonna happen, lending further to your confident feelings...maybe texas should be a sovereign nation, destroying all that stands in its path?...that seems to be the gist of your statement...how dare you question my pride! (not really angry but rather whimsical in this exclamation)...i have busloads of pride...my great-grandfather fought in the battle of *mumbles*...im very proud of that fact!...and i engage in hero worship in this little personality cult we got going here...my pride is beyond reproach!

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Mattsius

It changes fast, doesn't it.

Indeed. At this very moment it's just hilarious.