[Ninja Dodo]

(this post probably only makes sense if you've been following Dutch politics)

Is it just me or does it bother anyone else that we have openly racist/islamophobic elected officials in Holland?

I speak of course of former witch of immigration Rita Verdonk, but especially of Geert Wilders. Ten years ago the stuff they say would have had them sued for inciting hatred and racism.

The name of Verdonk's political party is "Proud of Holland" for god's sake! They're a step away from breaking out the swastikas only it's not the Jews that are "to blame for everything" this time.

I mean seriously, when did it become okay to be racist?

There's been this undercurrent of xenophobia throughout European politics in the last few years - if it isn't Haider, it's Le Pen - but nowhere more so today, if you ask me, than in the Netherlands. Land of tolerance indeed.

My guess: it all went tits up around the election that killed Pim Fortuyn. This guy changed the political landscape and made 'political-correctness' (whatever that really means) uncool forever. He said he wasn't a racist, but he certainly sounded like one... and then he went and got himself assassinated and won the election, in that order.

The legacy of Fortuyn is that now anyone can say whatever the hell they want under the guise of freedom of speech no matter how offensive or patently ridiculous it is...

This is why I don't miss the place. If it wasn't for my family and friends I wouldn't even want to visit anymore until this bullshit blows over.

So there it is, Holland is officially the least tolerant country in Western-Europe. I hope it's proud of itself... I certainly am not.


If you've read this far, thanks for indulging my angry ranting. This maybe seems like an odd time to be commenting on this as there are more pressing issues, but I was reminded of the sheer stupidity of this ambiance of intolerance by some throwaway comment made by aforementioned 'politician' Wilders and I had to get it off my chest.

Of course I'd love to hear if anyone else feels the same way / respectfully disagrees / whatever...

[Luna Sevithiainen]

You have pinpointed down the exact reason why I hate being Dutch.
This whole 'I-can-insult-everyone-becuase-of-freedom-of-speech' is totally getting out of control. What's worse, this so-called freedom of speech is, according to those 'in favor' of it, only meant for themselves: others are not allowed to speak ill of them. It is all so hypocrite, and indeed, it are the politicians that give the wrong example.

It is Wilders I fear the most, given his totally racist, insulting (I can't think of a stronger word than this, but it is more than just insulting, it is plain hateful) attitude agains the Mulsims. He is the one making things escalate with his so-called freedom of speech. It is not only by his film Fitna that he has managed to really anger the muslims (and I can't say I disagree with them, I would be really pissed myself if someone says the things about me that Wilders says). Thanks to him it seems that there is more and more a breach between the muslims and non-muslims, oh, and it also seems that the radical muslims have the netherlands as number 1 target for terrorist attacks because of Fitna. Yay

Verdonk is not much better, but it seems that, luckily she is losing votes. Bad thing is that those votes now go to Wilders It is always the foreigners who have done it in their view (mostly those from muslim countires, Marocco, Turkey and such) and yes, there are some problems with a minority of those boys, threatening ambulance personel, bus personel, burglary, violence etc, but there are as much problems with Dutch boys, so I dont't see why they always have to point to the whole group of foreigners as the bad guys. Like the Dutch are such angels.

The problem with the politics has, as Ninja Dodo says, also according to me started with Fortuyn. He didn't shun to say what was wrong in his opinion, and this kind captured the attention form the Dutch population. They were like 'finally someone who says what the problems are'.Too bad Fortuyn never came with something like solutions (and of course that he had some really strange ideas of what the problems were). But you keep seeing that mentality with Wilders and Verdonk. They are the ones screaming hardest that there are problems and that hose are because of the foreigners (their words, definately not mine!) and they are heard by the Dutch, who think that the ones who scream loudest, poitning everywhere to the problems, also will solve them. POint is that they do not solve the problems, mostly because they point out the wrong people as the culprit, and also because they oversee the deeper causes of the current problems) and they have no lasting solutions for the real problems whatsoever. But hey, they scream loudest, so they must be good, I hate the Dutch mentality

Quite a rant, but it is a subject that can really piss me off. And makes me so ashamed to be Dutch, to live in a country that has become so xenophobic, and that has people like Wilders and Verdonk on top.
Luckily all people I know are not xenophobic or racists (including me), so there still will be votes against them during the next elections. I just hope the whole storm will wane before then, so that Wilders and Verdonk will be out of sight and we have only decent parties to vote for. But I'm afraid that will not be the case

[Ninja Dodo]

Agreed. Let us hope they go the way of Lijst Pim Fortuyn, lost in obscurity, bickering all the way to their own irrelevance.

This is not the Holland I grew up in.

[UPtimist]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

If you've read this far, thanks for indulging my angry ranting. This maybe seems like an odd time to be commenting on this as there are more pressing issues

No, not really. It's not like one big news would or should make all others not matter

This is sort of a case of "how can you not empty your plate when there's millions of people dying?" It's not like just because there's something extremely important going on somewhere else you should stop caring about lesser things.

But anyways, from an outsider's point of view... Well, not much really, I agree with you totally. However I have faith this is a passing phase of taking of over-exaggeration in viewing rights and such. I think it's universal, people seem to be getting more and more concerned about themselves with the ever raising awareness of globality. Then people who are narrow-minded try take actions and raise barriers to protect themselves from the ever-closing outside world. They justify their actions with the human rights, forgetting it's a two-way street. With their raised barriers from the outside world when they can take less and less of actions that might still be able to harm them (in their opinion) and (to continue the figure of speech) then raise the barriers even further and so on. A vicious cycle or whatever you call it.

Oh, the world is narrow-minded indeed.

I believe though that with most people however becoming more tolerant, the trend will eventually making these people more marginal, although possibly even more resilient with the few supporters clinging to their narrow thoughts as much as possible.

(I hope I made eny sense, these long posts (or better: thoughts) tend to confuse even myself while I'm writing them )

[Starflux]

I agree completely, Ninja Dodo. Dutch politics has been kidnapped by these crazy populists who use vague underbelly feelings () as a claim to power. In reality, they're not difficult to see through: all they're doing is complaining about something whilst never coming with proper solutions (only terrifically insane ideas like making criminals doing public service duties wear ridiculous costumes to identify them as criminals). However, the way everyone is dealing with these people is equally absurd.

They're getting enormous amounts of media attention and 'normal' politicians still don't have a proper answer to these clowns. All the while unrest grows and these idiots have a platform to spread their polarizing diatribes. I always look at things like this: what is the picture other people paint, and what is my own experience? If I am to believe Wilders and Verdonk, the streets run rampant with out-of-control immigrants. However, I've never felt threatened in my own life any more than I feel generally threatened by any group of youngster hoodlums. The discord between those two pictures is enough to make me call shenanigans on the rabblerouser populists.

But truthfully, I don't see politics being any better anywhere else. America is in the grip of the meanest, lowest, mudslinging election ever (degrading of both sides, truly pathetic), France is being lead by some playboy, Germany by a Christian chancellor (much like our own prime minister)... It's pretty poor all around.

Oh, and by the way. Some of the things both Wilders and Verdonk say, might not even be 100% insane. But the way they bring it is already enough for me to dismiss them entirely. If you can't approach a problem without using hyperbole, incapable of employing subtlety or nuance, then you're going to hurt the discussion more than help solve it.

And to think these clowns may actually rise to power... the people get what the people deserve, I guess. Time to skip away.

[Erwin_Br]

Don't blame Wilders and Verdonk. You can't even blame the people for supporting them. The only ones you can blame are the established parties who are out of touch with the people.

Why is it possible that cars burn for several nights after some hoodlum is shot by a police officer who was defending his life? Why is it possible that a bus operator needs to suspend his schedule in a certain neighbourhood because the drivers are scared for their lives? Why is it possible that medical personnel on an ambulance are threatened with their lives when they try to help to save a life?

I understand that it's no easy task to solve the problems we're currently having with certain minority groups, but I think beating around the bush and pretending the problem does not exist is not the best way to go about it. I'm not advocating Wilder's style, but you could find some middle road here, I'm sure.

[Ninja Dodo]

I agree that ignoring problems is not a solution.

However, I think the 'failure' of the establishment is largely a myth, an image conjured up by Fortuyn ("de puinhopen van 8 jaar Paars") and perpetuated by his heirs. If things stay average or okay for long enough it's easy to convince the electorate that everything will be better if you vote for me!

There's no such thing as the perfect government, yet people continue to be disappointed every time their candidate turns out to be anything less, which results in a cycle of left-right-left-right that never goes anywhere.

These right-wing populists have no solutions. All they've done is further polarize society and exacerbate any problems that were already there. The integration exam is insulting (most Dutch people don't know this stuff), the double-nationality debate was absolutely shameful and let's not even start about the many atrocities Verdonk was responsible for while she was minister in the doomed Balkenende-II.

[Starflux]

As far as I know, Erwin, we're not 'blaming' anyone here. Of course it's silly to blame a new politician for problems that have their roots in generations past. The argument here is that Wilders and Verdonk are vapid populists who don't bring any real solutions to the table and only make things worse by throwing gasoline on the fire and dividing the country so that diplomacy and discourse get harder and harder.

Other politicians being uneffective or idiots as well, which I don't necessarily dispute, is another discussion.

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by Starflux

As far as I know, Erwin, we're not 'blaming' anyone here. Of course it's silly to blame a new politician for problems that have their roots in generations past. The argument here is that Wilders and Verdonk are vapid populists who don't bring any real solutions to the table and only make things worse by throwing gasoline on the fire and dividing the country so that diplomacy and discourse get harder and harder.

Other politicians being uneffective or idiots as well, which I don't necessarily dispute, is another discussion.

Well, I think we can all agree then that nobody is bringing real solutions to the table.

Diplomacy hasn't proven to be effective, and after years of monkeying around people are getting tired of talking about the problems instead of doing something about it. (Other than building the umpteenth "youth center")

I'm not saying we should take the Wilders route, but we defenetely need to toughen up. Step one is to awknowledge the problem. And that's where it mostly already fails. I guess it's all part of the WO2 trauma.

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

I agree that ignoring problems is not a solution.

However, I think the 'failure' of the establishment is largely a myth, an image conjured up by Fortuyn ("de puinhopen van 8 jaar Paars") and perpetuated by his heirs. If things stay average or okay for long enough it's easy to convince the electorate that everything will be better if you vote for me!

True, but that's not something Fortuyn conjured up. This has always been present, and always will be. The parties in charge will always have a disadvantage because there's always something to complain about. Especially in this country