[MystGirl]

Thought I'd start a thread for those of us into comic books and graphic novels, since it's common for gamers to also share these geek interests, along with sci-fi stuff as well.

Saw Hellboy 2 last night. GREAT movie. Saw more clips for the new Bathman movie. I also saw the new Bathman anime, called Batman:Gothic Knight. Very good. Check it out if you get a chance.

I've been burnt out on comics lately, but I tend to buy more independent stuff then the super hero stuff. However, I still get stuff from time to time. Comics can be quite addicting.

Frank Miller, is going to be directing a movie version of Will Eisner's old comic strip The Spirit. It looks like it's going to be in Sin City style. Looks very cool.

http://www.mycityscreams.com/

[MoriartyL]

The ongoing Avengers: The Initiative, by Dan Slott and Christos Gage, is in my opinion the best superhero comic I've ever read. (And I've read thousands of superhero comics going back to the 60's.) Most issues stand on their own as self-contained stories, yet each is an important part of the bigger picture. The series takes characters, plot points and themes from every Marvel Comic out there, and fits them all into its own story as though it were totally obvious that they should all be there. It ties in with each year's crossover event in ways that add a lot to the event while simultaneously being a natural continuation of the series' own story.

The actual story of the book is fantastic. It's got a genuine edge to it, where it's always willing to get much darker than you think it might. And that makes the frequent humor and charm that much more refreshing. The new characters are endearing, and the old characters tend to be as entertaining here or more than in their original stories. The setting is the entire Marvel Universe, so there's no one in all of Marvel Comics' history who'd feel out of place showing up and the writers have free rein to do whatever the heck they want. The first year of the book, which ended two months ago, was about how government corruption ruins noble ideas and innocent people. I don't know what it's going to be about next, but I can't wait to find out.

I cannot recommend it highly enough. It is everything I could possibly want from a superhero comic.

(Some people don't like it. They baffle me.)

[Ninja Dodo]

It's funny how much more mainstream comics are over here in Europe, in France especially. It's just another medium, scarcely limited to spandex-clad derring-do... in Holland it's still sorta considered mostly for kids, but over here major retail stores have whole departments devoted to comics both French and foreign. Manga's quite popular here as well.

But then there are some great comics around here... Franquin, Herge, Uderzo/Goscinny and others. Mind you, the first two are Belgian, albeit francophone.

I'm not hugely familiar with American comics, but with the possible exception of Miller's Batman, superheroes don't really do anything for me.

[Lucien21]

I used to read alot of comics when I was in college.

I still have some classics in my book shelves:

The Sandman series - Neil Gaiman (Best comic EVER)
Watchman
Batman Dark Knight and Dark Knight Strikes again
Batman Year One
Batman Killing Joke
A couple of Whedon XMen books
Batman Arkham Asylum
Books of Magic
Death a Time of your life
Kingdom Come
Some Preacher collections

Not so much as I used to have although I do pick up the occassional graphic novel.

Recent one have included the Buffy Season 8 comics which were ok, Y the Last Man was well written and The Walking Dead which is a very good zombie comic.

I tend to avoid the more mainstream stuff now.

[stepurhan]

Lucien, you should try Death : The High Cost of Living (which before The Time of Your Life). In fact, I'd recommend it to anyone as it stands alone whereas the second has many more ties to the Sandman series. Of course, you could all read Sandman as well.

Picked up a massive (2 inch thick) trade paperback of The Darkness (the comic book the game was based on) a couple of weeks back. Mob hitman inherits supernatural superpower (the titular Darkness) on his 21st birthday. Whilst useful this complicates his life immensely as both the forces of good and evil take an interest (and the forces of good aren't particularly nice) and he's not allowed to have sex any more (the power passes on to the offspring during sex, killing the father in the process) Nice dark sense of humour so far.

[Ninja Dodo]

Being in the apparent minority here, I have to ask: What's the appeal with superheroes?

I mean other than indie stuff like Ghost World are American comic artists not capable of writing an interesting story without putting superpowers and/or crime-fighting in it? Is this where the ability to speak un-ironically of 'bad guys' comes from?

I mean as I said I like some of Miller's stuff because it has a satirical edge to it and everything isn't so black and white (ironic considering the choice of visuals) and I read some Preacher once and found it interesting, but Iron Man? Seriously? Daredevil? Captain America???

I mean part of the the fun of The Dark Knight Returns is that Miller makes fun of what an incredible buffoon Superman really is... but I honestly don't see how anyone can take these 'heroes' seriously?

I actually was surprised to find myself enjoying Spiderman, the movie (well, the first two at least) because the characters were well-developed and the story was entertaining, but I still wouldn't be caught dead reading the comic.

[Zanthia]

Order Of The Stick, anybody?

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

I mean part of the the fun of The Dark Knight Returns is that Miller makes fun of what an incredible buffoon Superman really is... but I honestly don't see how anyone can take these 'heroes' seriously?

Why not?

[MystGirl]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Being in the apparent minority here, I have to ask: What's the appeal with superheroes?

I mean other than indie stuff like Ghost World are American comic artists not capable of writing an interesting story without putting superpowers and/or crime-fighting in it? Is this where the ability to speak un-ironically of 'bad guys' comes from?

I mean as I said I like some of Miller's stuff because it has a satirical edge to it and everything isn't so black and white (ironic considering the choice of visuals) and I read some Preacher once and found it interesting, but Iron Man? Seriously? Daredevil? Captain America???

I mean part of the the fun of The Dark Knight Returns is that Miller makes fun of what an incredible buffoon Superman really is... but I honestly don't see how anyone can take these 'heroes' seriously?

I actually was surprised to find myself enjoying Spiderman, the movie (well, the first two at least) because the characters were well-developed and the story was entertaining, but I still wouldn't be caught dead reading the comic.

American comics, have much more depth and history to them, then you might realize. You might find this interesting...

http://www.theshahnameh.com/history-...an-comic-book/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Book_Industry

[MystGirl]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Lucien, you should try Death : The High Cost of Living (which before The Time of Your Life). In fact, I'd recommend it to anyone as it stands alone whereas the second has many more ties to the Sandman series. Of course, you could all read Sandman as well.

Picked up a massive (2 inch thick) trade paperback of The Darkness (the comic book the game was based on) a couple of weeks back. Mob hitman inherits supernatural superpower (the titular Darkness) on his 21st birthday. Whilst useful this complicates his life immensely as both the forces of good and evil take an interest (and the forces of good aren't particularly nice) and he's not allowed to have sex any more (the power passes on to the offspring during sex, killing the father in the process) Nice dark sense of humour so far.

It's interesting that so many video games are being taken from comic book stories. (My brother played the video game version of The Darkness recently. Not too bad a game.)

I played The Spawn video game. Kind of corny, but it was still kind of cool to see his cape done so well in a 3-D version. (But I'm partial to things relating to Spawn)

[MystGirl]

Originally Posted by Lucien21

I used to read alot of comics when I was in college.

I still have some classics in my book shelves:

The Sandman series - Neil Gaiman (Best comic EVER)
Watchman
Batman Dark Knight and Dark Knight Strikes again
Batman Year One
Batman Killing Joke
A couple of Whedon XMen books
Batman Arkham Asylum
Books of Magic
Death a Time of your life
Kingdom Come
Some Preacher collections

Not so much as I used to have although I do pick up the occassional graphic novel.

Recent one have included the Buffy Season 8 comics which were ok, Y the Last Man was well written and The Walking Dead which is a very good zombie comic.

I tend to avoid the more mainstream stuff now.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/

[Lucien21]

Yes and I am oh so worried about that movie not living up to the comic.

Risky Risky.

(The character costumes look great though. Not sure how they are going to handle the weighty tome and especially the ending)

[Ninja Dodo]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Why not?

Several reasons.

- They look silly wearing spandex.

- Who needs super-powers? Wow, you can shoot lasers with your eyes. Congratulations. They're such a narrative cop-out. Like a character can't be made interesting without being somehow supernatural. Actually that's the only reason I don't mind Batman. He's just a dude what kicks ass in ethically debatable fashion...

Also Miller's "300". That's a historical (if romanticized) battle that actually happened in some form. That stuff is interesting. X-men, not so much.

- They promote the idea that people can be divided up into 'good guys' and 'bad guys' which is a view that you would think anyone over twelve grows out of, but apparently not.

- They take themselves too effing seriously which brings me back to previous point.

Originally Posted by MystGirl

American comics, have much more depth and history to them, then you might realize. You might find this interesting...

Well, rather than link me to Wikipedia maybe you could give me some titles you like that offer the substance I seem to be missing. I'm not entirely unfamiliar with American comics. For example, I'm aware that for years due to stringent censorship brought on by ye olde public outrage comics were too chicken to do anything that was not considered kid-friendly....

But seriously, do tell, what except for superheroes is there? The only title I'm aware of is Ghost World, but I'd love to hear about other good ones.

Have you tried any of the French or Belgian comics? They're quite something.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

- They look silly wearing spandex.

In their world, it's quite trendy. It's no different than any kind of fashion, except you can figure out who's who from a distance.

- Who needs super-powers? Wow, you can shoot lasers with your eyes. Congratulations. They're such a narrative cop-out. Like a character can't be made interesting without being somehow supernatural.

In their world, everyone has superpowers. If someone doesn't have superpowers, it probably just means not enough has happened to him yet. No one really needs superpowers; in fact it's usually quite annoying to have them. Cyclops especially is a good example of that. So superpowers are just sort of how things are to begin with.

Not that the powers don't have their upsides. How'd you have super-powered battles without superpowers?

- They promote the idea that people can be divided up into 'good guys' and 'bad guys' which is a view that you would think anyone over twelve grows out of, but apparently not.

Ah, but who's the good guy? I always root for Magneto and Dr. Doom. They're sure they're the good guys. Come to think of it, the whole situation is pretty realistic.

- They take themselves too effing seriously

Too seriously? [gasp] But the world will end!




Look, you don't like the world, you don't like the world. Sorry about that. I like the world.

I sympathize, though. I guess I'd be hard-pressed to find much beyond Fables and Criminal and some of Jonathan Hickman's stuff if I didn't like superheroes.

[Ninja Dodo]

If by 'world' you mean the world of superheroes, then yeah. If you're talking about the actual real world I think you may have misunderstood me. I like the world a lot, but I also recognize there are things wrong with it and grownups who seriously believe in the notion of 'bad guys' are not helping.

I like the fantastical in fiction, I just don't think superheroes are generally very good fantasy. I'll concede that sometimes it is done entertainingly, even elegantly, but mostly as a genre it just doesn't interest me.

[MoriartyL]

Of course I'm talking about the superhero world.

[Ninja Dodo]

Okay, never mind then.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

- Who needs super-powers? Wow, you can shoot lasers with your eyes. Congratulations. They're such a narrative cop-out. Like a character can't be made interesting without being somehow supernatural. Actually that's the only reason I don't mind Batman. He's just a dude what kicks ass in ethically debatable fashion...

I suggest you read J Michael Straczynski's Rising Stars series. Their powers and the world reaction to people with powers shape interesting characters in a way that wouldn't be achievable in a purely real world setting. They are no more a "narrative cop-out" than a PI with a drinking problem or a woman with a past she's running away from. These are aspects of the character that are used to shape their personality and serve as narrative hooks. Just because superpower stories have a fantasy element doesn't mean that's still not a source of narrative drive.

- They promote the idea that people can be divided up into 'good guys' and 'bad guys' which is a view that you would think anyone over twelve grows out of, but apparently not.

You should definitely read Alan Moore's Watchmen. I defy anyone to come away from that with a clear idea of who is good and who is bad. The moral ambiguity of most of the central characters is astonishing.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

I suggest you read J Michael Straczynski's Rising Stars series. Their powers and the world reaction to people with powers shape interesting characters in a way that wouldn't be achievable in a purely real world setting.

Ooh, good suggestion. Though personally I think his Supreme Power series was more successful at doing roughly the same thing.

[MystGirl]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Several reasons.

- They look silly wearing spandex.

- Who needs super-powers? Wow, you can shoot lasers with your eyes. Congratulations. They're such a narrative cop-out. Like a character can't be made interesting without being somehow supernatural. Actually that's the only reason I don't mind Batman. He's just a dude what kicks ass in ethically debatable fashion...

Also Miller's "300". That's a historical (if romanticized) battle that actually happened in some form. That stuff is interesting. X-men, not so much.

- They promote the idea that people can be divided up into 'good guys' and 'bad guys' which is a view that you would think anyone over twelve grows out of, but apparently not.

- They take themselves too effing seriously which brings me back to previous point.

Well, rather than link me to Wikipedia maybe you could give me some titles you like that offer the substance I seem to be missing. I'm not entirely unfamiliar with American comics. For example, I'm aware that for years due to stringent censorship brought on by ye olde public outrage comics were too chicken to do anything that was not considered kid-friendly....

But seriously, do tell, what except for superheroes is there? The only title I'm aware of is Ghost World, but I'd love to hear about other good ones.

Have you tried any of the French or Belgian comics? They're quite something.

You grew up in Europe I'm assuming, so it is reasonable to think you're going to be partial to French or Belgian comics. I grew up in the United States, so I am partial to American comics. The links I mentioned to you in my previous post, were just meant to give more background info on Amercian comics and why super heroes are so popular in American culture, that's all.

To those of us who love American comics, super heroes are of great substance...because of all the different types of stories we've read all our lives surrounding them. Many super hero stories also incorporate things going on in the real world, into story lines, which adds more dimension to the stories themsevles, or personal things the main heroes are going through.

Many super hero comics have delt with very "real world" issues over the years. Rape, teen pregnancy, divorce, war, poverty, violence, social issues, government issues, etc. As much as I enjoy realism in comics, I also enjoy being able to fantasize about what it would be like to be able to fly, shoot lasers out of my eyes, be invisible, etc. I mean, why not? Comics are a great way to feed creativity and the imagination.

As an artist, I also love the variety of art in comics these days.

I wouldn't be caught dead reading Belgian or French comics... (I'm teasing)

I am not familiar with Belgian or French comics, because I grew up on American comics. But I'm not one to judge something immediately, just because it's new, or different to me. I like to give new/different things a bit of a chance, before I judge them with sweeping generalities.