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Old 07-29-2009, 07:41 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by TiAgUh View Post
Hum... I dunno, i think that outside of Marvel and DC's superheroes comics there's lot of variety, wacky stuff everywhere.
And i think most of the artists from the superhero genre are Europeans, no?
Honestly, I don't know.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:42 AM   #142
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I've been rereading Preacher, which still holds up as an enjoyable read. The series spans 9 graphic novels and focuses around the concept of a bitter preacher being imbued with the word of God--he can make people do exactly as he says, sometimes in gruesome ways. This is not a comic for kids!
I remember reading that one althought it was a long time ago so we might be talking about different comics. I remember it focusing on some rather dark subjects like incest and sexual activities with animals.
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:32 PM   #143
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I was a fan of comics as a child (x-men, spiderman, etc) but when I reached a certain age (about 14 or 15) there was just something about them that started to repulse me, I think it was during or after the "Clone Saga" in spiderman, mid/late 90s. (If anybody doesn't know what I'm referring to I'll happily explain it with a little personal commentary if you send me a private message . I don't expect my inbox to be 'flooded' )

I'm mostly talking about American Superhero style comics and generally from DC and Marvel, here.

I began to notice huge problems in dialogue where nothing the characters said resembled the way people actually speak. That is, a great deal of what people say can be cut to a few sentences. (If the average marvel comic was edited so that the dialogue was more realistic it would only be 5 pages long. Which would mean they’d be able to start producing anthology comics, like 2000 AD ). Also, whenever the events of a current comic relate to something that happened months, years or even only several issues ago the characters will have to explain it to each other so that new readers understand.

Then there's other things, such as a frequent lack of continuity. Cities can be razed and then in the next issue they're completely back to normal. Amazing scientific or cultural advancements happen in many comics (new technology or contact with alien races) yet life in the worlds of these comics stubbornly retains parallel with real life. Time moves incredibly slowly. This is probably because issues are generally released between a month and a week apart but there must be ways to get around this. Neil Gaiman managed. Events publish up to years previously don’t need to be referenced as only weeks or even days before current issues.

And even though time moves slowly in terms of events; the years still seem to progress with our calendars. That is, in spite of everything I've said, they'll still use usually use the year of publication as the date. going back to spiderman as an example; Peter Parker was a high school senior (Actually I have no idea what age defines 'senior' in the US, and I understand that there's a large difference between their High Schools and our Secondary Schools that I haven't grasped, but I think it's safe to assume he was a teenager older than 13 or 14) when he gained his powers in the early 60s. 4 decades on he and Mary-Jane should be in their 50s. Are they? (Actually, are they? I don't read this title anymore so please tell me if he's actually reached his real age).

(I've never read many DC titles until later on, mentioned below if you're still reading this post by that point, but I gather they employ a far more sensible tactic of 'starting over' every 15 years or so; creating a new origin story for characters and beginning their adventures again. I to admit that I don't speak from experience so please correct me if I'm wrong about this).

All male protagonists seem to be idealised fantasy versions of their creators, while women, protagonist or antagonist, are almost always the embodiments of their creators' idealised fantasies; all wearing skimpy outfits. Even the women who aren't main characters and are intended to be less attractive are usually extremely pretty.

Even the smaller staple clichés really started to bug me, such as every hero and villain needing a ridiculous code name and costume.

That being said, after I started reading novels (of the none graphic variety) I soon discovered Terry Pratchett (writer of the 'Discworld' series) and discovered Neil Gaiman through the book they co-authored; 'Good Omens'. In the [very] brief biography of the authors it mentioned that Neil Gaiman was [mainly] a writer of comics, though it didn't mention any titles he'd worked on. I thus resolved to keep an eye out for any of his work, this being before I had grown sick of 'traditional' marvel/DC comics.

Volunteering at my school library came across a catalogue of graphic novels and poured over this whenever I could sneak a look (the librarian didn't really want me to read it, for some reason) and for the first time found some of the titles of Neil Gaiman's stuff. I made a mental note of 'Death: The High Cost of Living", for some reason, and it eventually became the first of his books I read (not counting Good Omens). I soon moved onto the sandman (probably because it was mentioned in a 4 or 5 page segment after the actual story/comic part of the book as the story of which "Death..." was merely a spin-off).

I don't remember if I started reading "2000 AD" before or after I started reading "The Sandman" (pretty sure it was after but that doesn't seem to fit with my internal chronology...). (I joined a 'Creative Writing' club, in school, becoming its first and only member) and it was recommended to me by the teacher who ran it after I submitted a particularly gory story. I had been vaguely aware of it in the past and was, obviously, familiar with Judge Dredd (not just from the awful movie; my mother had gotten me a copy of 'Judge Dredd Magazine' while I was hospitalised years earlier, not realising it was meant for "more mature readers". I seem to recall the 'cover story' had the slogan "Babes with Big Bazookas", which she admitted she should have read before getting it).

I was really impressed; the magazine seemed to sate my blood lust on a weekly basis, however the stories did become far more tame after Y2K when the company was purchased by games company "Rebellion Developments", who wanted the computer gaming rights to Judge Dredd. Eventually I gave up hope of the comic returning to former glory and stopped buying when I realised that my favourite titles (particularly Necronauts and Caballistics, Inc) would be released in graphic novel form sooner or later.

Today I'm extremely cautious about buying a new graphic novel (I seldom buy individual comics, but that's mostly because the average news agent rarely supplies many) because so many of them will have bad dialogue or continue to prolong those unrealistic standards of beauty or some other usual pitfall. The biggest selling point of any comic, for me is if it has the word ‘Neil Gaiman’ anywhere on it or in it. (I know I won’t make any friends by saying this but I find Alan Moore and Grant Morrison overrated; works I’ve read from either writer seem to live up to the hype around them).

I purchased the first part of 100 Bullets because I was assured it didn't but, even though it wasn't a bad story, I felt lied to. I was also recommended "Y: The Last Man" by the same guy, but I didn't really trust him after his last recommendation

Speaking of "...Last Man", would anybody here recommend it? It an awful lot like the plot to the 1954 book "I Am Legend". (Yeah, the one the Will Smith film was based on. Actually, it wasn't the first film to be based on it).
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I remember reading that one althought it was a long time ago so we might be talking about different comics. I remember it focusing on some rather dark subjects like incest and sexual activities with animals.
No, I think you're talking about the same one. I don't remember any incest but it's presence wouldn't have surprised me at all. There was some beastiality from one of the characters that I do remember, though. (Not depicted graphically, ofc, but it was certainly made clear that he did it on more than one occasion).
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:26 AM   #144
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And even though time moves slowly in terms of events; the years still seem to progress with our calendars. That is, in spite of everything I've said, they'll still use usually use the year of publication as the date. going back to spiderman as an example; Peter Parker was a high school senior (Actually I have no idea what age defines 'senior' in the US, and I understand that there's a large difference between their High Schools and our Secondary Schools that I haven't grasped, but I think it's safe to assume he was a teenager older than 13 or 14) when he gained his powers in the early 60s. 4 decades on he and Mary-Jane should be in their 50s. Are they? (Actually, are they? I don't read this title anymore so please tell me if he's actually reached his real age).
No, of course not. They're in their mid-20s now. Now, what I'm about to say is just my own personal idea, it's not how the Marvel editors really think about this stuff. (They try not to think about it.) But I think the laws of time don't work the same in the Marvel Universe as they do in ours. I think in the MU, time is different from person to person.

Imagine this scenario: Person A meets Person B in 2008. Person A then leaves and lives for ten years. Person B leaves their encounter and lives for a day. Then they meet up again in 2009 and share experiences. One is now ten years older, while the other is just a day older. In the Marvel Universe, this is perfectly plausible.

I like to think that the relativity and chaos of time is a well-known law of physics there, so obvious that they never bother to mention it. I like to think that they wake up some days and discover they've missed an election while they were sleeping, and just shrug it off because that's the way the world works. Rotten luck, that's all. Using superpowers seems to slow down time, and spending a lot of time with another person gets the two "timestreams" to more closely resemble each other. I wish they'd actually make a comic which admits to this.

It drives me crazy when they have a story set in some character's past, and the story is set in the modern day. Like, there was a story a few years ago set when Spider-Man was starting out, and it had blogs in it. Blogs! That is wrong. When Spider-Man was ten years younger, it was the 1960s. Now it's 2009. This isn't so complicated that the writers can't figure it out.


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(I know I won’t make any friends by saying this but I find Alan Moore and Grant Morrison overrated; works I’ve read from either writer seem to live up to the hype around them).
I agree with you 100%. Alan Moore has never impressed me, and Grant Morrison actively offends my sensibilities with almost everything he writes.

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I purchased the first part of 100 Bullets because I was assured it didn't but, even though it wasn't a bad story, I felt lied to. I was also recommended "Y: The Last Man" by the same guy, but I didn't really trust him after his last recommendation
I don't understand what the "lie" was concerning 100 Bullets- it's an excellent comic, from what little I've read of it. Y: The Last Man was mentioned earlier in this thread. It's a good comic, but I don't think it's one of the best things its writer (Brian K. Vaughan) has done. The characters are great, the plot is lousy. Actually, that's true of a lot of things he's done. If you like character-driven stories, I would recommend it. Just don't expect one of the best things you've ever read.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:36 AM   #145
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I agree with you 100%. Alan Moore has never impressed me, and Grant Morrison actively offends my sensibilities with almost everything he writes.
Thanks While Moore's work has usually failed to impress me or generally capture my imagination I'd like to make it clear to everybody that I still really respect him for raising the level of maturity in comics and de-emphasising the need for all western/english comics to be about super powered vigilantes and opening the door for great writers, particularly the aforementioned Neil Gaiman.

Morrison doesn't offend me too much, I think he's one of those people who confuses 'mature' fiction with shocking. I'll say the same for Garth Ennis (Preacher). It sets the genre back to childish toilet humour and bad language. You don't need to have these things on every page for adults to enjoy them! The Sandman certainly didn't need it.

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I don't understand what the "lie" was concerning 100 Bullets- it's an excellent comic, from what little I've read of it.
The 'lie' was the assurances given that 100 bullets didn't have the same cliché pitfalls of so many other comics. It had fewer clichés (now super powered costumed vigilantes, for one thing) and a realistic (non sci-fi or fantasy) story but it still had bad dialogue in places and the same unrealistic standards of beauty. I'm not saying I hated it, though, I did like the social commentaries, conspiratorial nature of the plot and I may yet buy further parts of the series to see if I might like it more.

Sorry for not being especially clear. It was late at night and I was tired and I didn't want to go to bed leaving any 7s in my post count. (Aspergers thing, you understand).
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:53 AM   #146
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What have you both read from Alan Moore and Grant Morrison? It's hard to see how works like Watchmen or Morrison's All-Star Superman (or even Moore's 2000AD: The Ballad of H. Jones) didn't impressed you at all

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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
(I've never read many DC titles until later on, mentioned below if you're still reading this post by that point, but I gather they employ a far more sensible tactic of 'starting over' every 15 years or so; creating a new origin story for characters and beginning their adventures again. I to admit that I don't speak from experience so please correct me if I'm wrong about this).
Guess you're talking about the Crisis events, dunno if its every 15years or so, i think they just do it when theres too much 'worlds' in the Multiverse which kinda gets confusing (too many versions of Flash and stuff).
The last real Crisis event was the weekly 52 i think (which was awesome btw ), Final Crisis (the most recent event from DC) wasn't about the Multiverse at all but the replacement of the New Gods, not 100% sure. One things for sure, something awesome happened :
Spoiler:
bye bye Bruce Wayne as Batman

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It's a good comic, but I don't think it's one of the best things its writer (Brian K. Vaughan) has done.
Now there's one writer that i think is overrated as hell. I remember reading some reviews that said something like " Pride of Baghdad is as good as Watchmen" .. man what a waste of money, a graphic novel only saved by its art.

My only complain in comics is that when they die, they should stay dead.

Note: in this post i wasnt aware of Marduk's last post
EDIT: They live in their own world, costumes\powers are something they're used to. Why does that bother you so much? They know they look ridiculous , they often say it so.

Last edited by TiAgUh; 08-03-2009 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:15 AM   #147
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What have you both read from Alan Moore and Grant Morrison? It's hard to see how works like Watchmen or Morrison's All-Star Superman (or even Moore's 2000AD: The Ballad of H. Jones) didn't impressed you at all
I started 2000AD after Halo Jones. I like what Watchmen did for the comics industry, in as much as they forced people to examine the whole 'superhero' genre but I really had to force myself to the end of it, and it's the first time I had to do that with any graphic novel. In spite of it's cynical take on superheroes didn't you find some parts... I don't know...

I mean Rorschach's entire method of investigation seemed to consist of walking into some random pub and beating people up until somebody gave him information (without any reason given as to why the people of that particular pub might have people with said information) and harassing a retired costumed villain who only ever took up his costume as part of a trend that never really caught on.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

It's almost as bad as Batman walking up to people on the streets and showing them pictures (some dark knight...)

For me Alan Moore's best work is V for Vendetta. There were some parts I still found a little hit and miss but it's about the finest piece of work he's ever been associated with.

From Grant Morrison... Actually I haven't read as much of his stuff. But just because I think he's overrated doesn't mean I don't like some of the stuff he's done. There's actually a fair few titles that bare his name that are actually still on my personal 'reading list'.

I liked the invisibles (but I gave up after the 4th one; it wasn't having nearly the affect on me that reviews said it would; I already questioned reality and subscribed to plenty of conspiracy theories, and the plot lost whatever quality that made me like it after the second book. Does anybody else think that King Mob looked a lot like Morrison?) and his work on The Authority, but nearly as much as I liked the Authority before he got involves with it.

[quote]Guess you're talking about the Crisis events, dunno if its every 15years or so....[/SPOILER] Actually I was talking about all of the 'golden age' and 'silver age' (and whatever the names of the other DC comic ages are) stuff. Apparently events can't crossover from one 'age' of comics to another, or so I've been lead to believe. Variations of characters or events that may have unfolded in a specific time remain canonical to those specific ages. (I learned this while researching of one of the batman characters, but I don't remember which).

To be honest I have no idea how this system really works. Feel free to enlighten me if you know more.
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Now there's one writer that i think is overrated as hell. I remember reading some reviews that said something like " Pride of Baghdad is as good as Watchmen" .. man what a waste of money, a graphic novel only saved by its art.
Thanks, if somebody says something is "as good as Watchmen" I'll be sure not to waste my money on it, either.

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My only complain in comics is that when they die, they should stay dead.
Yeah, fair enough.
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They live in their own world, costumes\powers are something they're used to. Why does that bother you so much? They know they look ridiculous , they often say it so.
It wouldn't bother me nearly as much if the genre didn't dominate comics the way it does. If it wasn't for the Superhero comics the world has become used to then people would be far more accepting of the graphic novel's place in the world of fine literature that it's become increasingly deserving of in the last 20 years or so.

I don't actually hate the superhero genre I just have problems with it. Some times I actually like it. It just usually comes with a layer of cheese that's hard to digest and sometimes comes with so much cheese that you have to scrape it off before you can enjoy it. (I actually like cheese, personally, and have no problems disgusting it but it's a metaphor).


I was just writing about my personal tastes and preferences. I'm interested to hear people's opinions and wanted to share my own.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:03 PM   #148
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I mean Rorschach's entire method of investigation seemed to consist of walking into some random pub and beating people up until somebody gave him information (without any reason given as to why the people of that particular pub might have people with said information) and harassing a retired costumed villain who only ever took up his costume as part of a trend that never really caught on.

Do you get where I'm coming from?
It's Rorschach dude, 90% of his 'methods' simply don't make sense the only way for him to get infos is to try anywhere... but wait, if im not wrong they were all connected because
Spoiler:
they all worked for Pyramind Transnational: the dude Ozy hired and Moloch. Ozy's guy usually went to that bar and Moloch was the only villain still alive, which made him a suspect of the famous murder.

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To be honest I have no idea how this system really works. Feel free to enlighten me if you know more.
It's DC, talking more about it would only hurt our brains

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It wouldn't bother me nearly as much if the genre didn't dominate comics the way it does. If it wasn't for the Superhero comics the world has become used to then people would be far more accepting of the graphic novel's place in the world of fine literature that it's become increasingly deserving of in the last 20 years or so.
And whose fault is that? Superhero comics or people's minds? Just cuz the protagonist wears a cape it doesn't mean the story sucks or that is something for kids.
Superheroes or not it would all be the same. Comics = books with drawings all over = kids stuff
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Old 08-03-2009, 02:03 PM   #149
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Morrison doesn't offend me too much, I think he's one of those people who confuses 'mature' fiction with shocking.
Oh, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean that Morrison's writing offends me because it tries to be shocking. I'm okay with shocking. I meant that Morrison's writing offends me because it's usually so horrifically bad. His plots are like a little kid playing with action figures, and his characters are always unrelatable. And then he pours on heaping mounds of pretension, as though that fixes everything.
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:32 PM   #150
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Is it just that it's kids stuff, though?

There are some genuinely thought provoking works in general canon which are far deeper than anybody would really give them credit for. The best example of this is probably the Incredible Hulk, which is a retelling of Jekyll & Hyde and Frankenstein’s monster all at once. But the beauty of it is simply overlooked because of the terrible dialogue you tend to get in comics.

Then again, the Hulk isn't really an example of superheroes with silly names and garish costumes.

Works like The Sandman, however, have won literary awards. It won 1 in particular (I think it was the 'Calliope' story that won the prize) and there was outrage that the award should be claimed by a comic. So much so that the following year the rules had been changed so that comics could not win the award.

I really think that's it's more that cheesy stories, bad plots, awful dialogues and other little discrepancies that I've already mentioned that have caused comics to gradually lose the interest of everybody except those who can't see those faults for what they are; children, those who actually like those cheesy faults and obsessive die hard fans.
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Oh, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean that Morrison's writing offends me because it tries to be shocking. I'm okay with shocking. I meant that Morrison's writing offends me because it's usually so horrifically bad. His plots are like a little kid playing with action figures, and his characters are always unrelatable. And then he pours on heaping mounds of pretension, as though that fixes everything.
I agree with that, too.
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Old 08-08-2009, 10:24 AM   #151
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I am really sorry if i killed this thread. It's never intentional, but I am good at it, apparently.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:00 AM   #152
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I am really sorry if i killed this thread. It's never intentional, but I am good at it, apparently.
If you have that skill, you should go here then and make the world a better place.
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Old 08-08-2009, 01:25 PM   #153
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It's not a skill it's a curse

Besides I've been there and posted. And I was told the idea is no longer to try and kill it
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Old 08-08-2009, 02:16 PM   #154
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That's because they were trying to trick you. They want to win for themselves!
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:02 AM   #155
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Resurrecting this thread as I am stumped.

I am trying to find a present for my mother. I want to get her a graphic novel. We already have Persepolis, which she quite enjoyed. She also enjoyed the Sandman and Lucifer series. She did not enjoy "Gone with the Blastwave" - at all. She did enjoy the Artesia series. I was thinking of getting "Maus" for her, but I reconsidered, as it might be a bit too heavy for a christmas present. I am considering "Pride of Baghdad", but wanted to see if I can get some other suggestions first.

It shouldn't cost too much (not really a problem, as long as it's not a recent publication, as I'm likely going to order through amazon, and they usually have discounts if it's not recent), and should maybe be a compilation of a series, so she has something to read for some time.


So, any suggestions, guys?


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Old 11-29-2010, 12:06 PM   #156
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Depends on what kind of thing she is into.

Are you after done in one or would you accept onging comics. She might like the likes of Fables or Y the Last man or some of the Hellblazer trades if she likes Sandman.

Pride of Baghdad is very good story about the iraq war as seen through the eyes of a zoo lion.

Parker: The Hunter and Parker: The Outfit are both superb 50's style crime stories. (Both adaptions of the Parker novels some of which were made into movies. Esp The Hunter which was a Mel Gibson movie called Payback)

Criminal is also very good and there is a great deluxe edition out.

I'm a big fan of Queen and Country if she likes spy stories.

For more kid friendly stuff you may like Bone or The Wonderful Wizard of Oz and it's sequel The Marvelous Land of Oz are brilliant adaptions with georgous art.

For more romancy style you could get her Blankets (a coming of age with strict christian parents story)
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:53 PM   #157
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I didn't know a thread like this existed. If I'd've known I would've put all the manga I've bought here instead of in the 'Latest Books Bought' thread.

I doubt anyone will take any notice, but whatever. If there's anyone who's interested in manga (or curious) and wants something more serious, darker and mature - instead of the more action-packed/wacky/cutesy stuff - then look no further than Death Note or Naoki Urasawa's Monster. Death Note's my favourite, and although I've only read one volume of Monster (ordered volume 2 and 3), it could very easily come at a close second.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:02 AM   #158
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Dear Jazhara,
Have you actually read the Bone comics. They are a lot lighter reading and I haven't found anyone who hasn't enjoyed them from my age to my youngest.
Also if you want to find her some very in heavy reading and you can find them, Puma Blues were written in the 80's and I bet she would get an intellectual kick out of them, or at least a nostalgic one.
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