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Old 02-23-2004, 04:07 PM   #1
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I'd almost forgotten how funny Demolition Man was, but there was one small joke in it, that today is pretty scary.

"The Schwarzenegger library?"
"Yeah, it was named after the president... He was elected after they amended the constitution to allow the candidacy of non-americans."
"Wasn't he an actor?"

You have to wonder if this is where the governator got his ideas. Interesting how this, through passage of time, has become a ripoff of much the same joke in Back to the Future. "Then who's vice-president? Jerry Lewis?!"
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Old 02-24-2004, 05:37 AM   #2
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I don't see why non-american-born citizens should be prohibited from standing. President Schwarzenegger, has a nice ring to it. I reckon the republicans may well try to amend the consitution
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Old 02-24-2004, 07:01 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by DomStLeger
I don't see why non-american-born citizens should be prohibited from standing. President Schwarzenegger, has a nice ring to it. I reckon the republicans may well try to amend the consitution
I'm sorry, but this just seems like a monumentally bad idea to me. It's not that I'm against immigrants or anything. In fact, I'm probably more liberal than most in that regard. I think that non-Americans probably should have more of a say in how America is run since the US, unlike any other country on the planet, has such a major effect on the rest of the world. I don't know how the details of that would be worked out, but I think it would be good if they at least had some say.

That said, I don't think people who weren't born in America should be eligible for president. I realize that Schwarzenegger is who they have specifically in mind, but you also have to think about how such an amendment might be used in the future. Just think. If this amendment had happened say 50 years ago we might be looking at President bin Laden. After all, the 9/11 terrorists lived just like any other American. They blended into society. Nobody noticed them, even when they learned how to fly without learning how to land. Now we're talking about opening up the highest office in the land to such people. All you really need to completely sabotage the entire nation is somebody who's willing to lay low for 20 years. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I don't like giving those kind of people that kind of opportunity. I want whoever is president of the United States to have a vested interest in making sure the United States turns out okay.

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Old 02-24-2004, 07:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by mag
we might be looking at President bin Laden
erm... tell me. Just how would he get elected? Frankly though, I don't see how having him as a president could be much worse than Bush. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they were actually big buddies, because if 9/11 hadn't happened, Bush would have been impeached for incompetence ages ago. He owes what popularity he has to Osama.

But the issue isn't whether immigrants should be allowed to be president. The issue is that there is actually a remote chance that the governator could become president. That is a very scary thought.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:07 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by mag
I'm sorry, but this just seems like a monumentally bad idea to me. It's not that I'm against immigrants or anything. In fact, I'm probably more liberal than most in that regard. I think that non-Americans probably should have more of a say in how America is run since the US, unlike any other country on the planet, has such a major effect on the rest of the world. I don't know how the details of that would be worked out, but I think it would be good if they at least had some say.

That said, I don't think people who weren't born in America should be eligible for president. I realize that Schwarzenegger is who they have specifically in mind, but you also have to think about how such an amendment might be used in the future. Just think. If this amendment had happened say 50 years ago we might be looking at President bin Laden. After all, the 9/11 terrorists lived just like any other American. They blended into society. Nobody noticed them, even when they learned how to fly without learning how to land. Now we're talking about opening up the highest office in the land to such people. All you really need to completely sabotage the entire nation is somebody who's willing to lay low for 20 years. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I don't like giving those kind of people that kind of opportunity. I want whoever is president of the United States to have a vested interest in making sure the United States turns out okay.

mag

My post was firmly tongue in cheek.

But to answer a few of your points, personally I don't want to have a say in how america is run, I just want an equal say on how the whole world is run. We already have something set up to help do that - the UN. All we need is for it to be given some proper power and respect.

Secondly, for a country made almost entirely of immigrants of one kind or another it does seem a little strange to me that you have to be born there to become president. I'd have thought that any citizen of the US has a vested interest in it's future, and should have a right to represent the people. And I honestly can't see an international terrorist duping people and taking the white house. The idea that immigrant citizens shouldn't be allowed to be President in the name of "national security" not only makes me laugh, but scares me that it can be even seriously considered. Even if you do consider that to be remotely possible, consider this - there are already alot of american citizens who are entitled to stand for president yet are members of extreme organisations like the KKK. Expanding the entitlement to citizens not born in the US is not going to have much effect in that respect.

But I can see something of what you're talking about - Presidential power is very great indeed, so you need to ensure you have good people getting the job - I'd perhaps be a little paranoid if I lived under the worry of hoe to deal with a dodgy president. Personally I'm against the presidential style government. I don't like them; presidents have an almost unopposed absolute form of power, and the only way you can get rid of them is via an election or the legal process. You only need a small majority (or in the US case not even that) to win an extraordinary amount of power. Granted the US has some very good checks and balances in place, but in the end it is still 1 man with alot of power and resonsibility. I prefer our system, where a prime minister is only an MP who can be got rid of by the rest of parliament whenever they feel like it. Even better, an election can be called and conducted in 4 weeks. It may not be perfect, but at least the power is shared by 600+ people and not 1, and if those 600 people can't form a simple majority the other 60million people automatically have their say.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by mag
Now we're talking about opening up the highest office in the land to such people.

mag
I didn't know that terrorists are only born in non-USA countries.

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Old 02-24-2004, 10:45 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
erm... tell me. Just how would he get elected?
Sure, nobody would vote for him now. But if we continue with our hypothetical situation it's not all that hard to see. Back in the 80s bin Laden was supposed to be one of the good guys helping us to fight the Soviets. Even during the 90s when he was actively attacking American targets a lot of Americans didn't know who he was. Bin Laden may be evil, but he knows how to play the political game. If he had had the opportunity and the will, I think he very well could have taken some sort of public office in America.

Of course, that is obviously an extreme example. But it makes my point. We've already seen that people can integrate themselves into a society and live there for years without being discovered. All it would really take is somebody with enough patience who knows how to work the American political system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DomStLeger
My post was firmly tongue in cheek.
Sorry. I've just heard that said so often in the past few days I kind of assumed you were being serious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DomStLeger
Even if you do consider that to be remotely possible, consider this - there are already alot of american citizens who are entitled to stand for president yet are members of extreme organisations like the KKK. Expanding the entitlement to citizens not born in the US is not going to have much effect in that respect.
Well, I never said it was perfect. In an ideal world we'd have ways of sorting out people like the KKK too. Frankly, I don't have a whole lot of faith left in the American electoral process at this point. But there's no reason to go looking for trouble. I'm sure there are plenty of non-Americans that would make a lot better presidents than some of the ones we've had. But my cynicism forces me to consider who else might try to use it. We've had enough presidents do damage to the country just because of incompetence. Can you imagine what might happen if somebody were actively trying to sabotage it? At least with an native American, it's not like he can go back home to China or Afghanistan when things start to go south here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DomStLeger
I prefer our system, where a prime minister is only an MP who can be got rid of by the rest of parliament whenever they feel like it. Even better, an election can be called and conducted in 4 weeks. It may not be perfect, but at least the power is shared by 600+ people and not 1, and if those 600 people can't form a simple majority the other 60million people automatically have their say.
Another thing I've noticed about the political process in the UK is that they actually seem to care about what they're talking about. When Parliament disagrees with Blair they really let him have it. It's not like the sheeple of America who just go along with everything because the president told them to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
But the issue isn't whether immigrants should be allowed to be president. The issue is that there is actually a remote chance that the governator could become president. That is a very scary thought.
It is scary. I've heard Arnold talk about politics. He should definitely stick to movies.

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Old 02-24-2004, 11:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag
Sorry. I've just heard that said so often in the past few days I kind of assumed you were being serious.
Hehe np


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Originally Posted by mag
Well, I never said it was perfect. In an ideal world we'd have ways of sorting out people like the KKK too. Frankly, I don't have a whole lot of faith left in the American electoral process at this point. But there's no reason to go looking for trouble. I'm sure there are plenty of non-Americans that would make a lot better presidents than some of the ones we've had. But my cynicism forces me to consider who else might try to use it. We've had enough presidents do damage to the country just because of incompetence. Can you imagine what might happen if somebody were actively trying to sabotage it? At least with an native American, it's not like he can go back home to China or Afghanistan when things start to go south here.
Yeah Iunderstand where you're coming from. Though I would like to point out that under the US system you can't have dual nationality. So anyone who is a citizen of the US should not be a citizen of any other country.

Incidentally, we have a strange situation at the moment, where any EU citizen can vote in a British election (and stand as an MP I think, and thus potentially be PM) yet still not technically be a british citizen. I think it's great that we can now move around europe freely and we automatically get full rights where-ever we are. But the worry here, and I agree with you here, is that if things go tit-up here people don't have a vested interest and so can leave for a more prosperous part of the EU. On a side note, I don''t think that'll be a problem in the UK, but I can see problems in the new Eastern European countries that are about to join, with some of the most talented and educated heading west in search of higher pay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mag
Another thing I've noticed about the political process in the UK is that they actually seem to care about what they're talking about. When Parliament disagrees with Blair they really let him have it. It's not like the sheeple of America who just go along with everything because the president told them to.
Yes thats right. He even came close to loosing a crucial vote on university fees a few weeks ago that may well have forced him to resign. I think it's healthy in a democracy to have a leader who does not have 4yrs job security



Quote:
Originally Posted by mag
It is scary. I've heard Arnold talk about politics. He should definitely stick to movies.

mag
I'd prefer it if he just retired from both
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:24 PM   #9
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As Domst said, almost all Americans are immigrants, the only difference being the amount of generations since.

Quote:
Back in the 80s bin Laden was supposed to be one of the good guys helping us to fight the Soviets.
This is where I'm confused though. How are the Americans (and their allies) "the good guys" here? They trained and armed desperate people to do their dirty work, then they get angry when it comes around and bites them in the ass. Then Vietnam, another lovely example of Americans being nice. Again I fail to see how "good guys" and Americans are compatible phrases.

Bin Laden is not evil... he's a terrible person with serious anger-management issues who's using his expert CIA training to get back at the people he hates most.
This is the problem with many americans. They don't understand that they're not "the good guys", and that their enemies aren't evil. If they did, they'd know how to stop terrorism.

I'll give you a hint... it's not war.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:27 PM   #10
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erm... tell me. Just how would he get elected? Frankly though, I don't see how having him as a president could be much worse than Bush.
One of them might go for an exterminate all Christians approach while the other may not.

Still, I agree with the first second point made, it should really be okay for a non-US-born person to be the president. If at all he wins the election it may be for a very good reason, the least of which may be that he's a very capable man. (I use he and man, loosely.)

Before any radical changes, though, I believe we'll see a female president and a 'colored' president before a non-US-born president.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:35 PM   #11
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One of them might go for an exterminate all Christians approach while the other may not.
As opposed to an "Arrest most muslims without pressing charges, keeping them locked up indefinitely and kill the rest"-approach?

Scarcely any different.*

* - Note I'm exaggerating, but you get my point. Bush is a greedy fascist bordering on nazi... or to be more precise, the advisors controlling puppet Bush are. Plus Bush is really as much of a religious extremist as Bin Laden.

I'm sure the current adminstration would love to get rid of all muslims... They just won't out of practical geo-political considerations.
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:28 PM   #12
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I didn't know that terrorists are only born in non-USA countries.
I never said that. Certainly there are a lot of Americans we have to look out for as well. But Americans terrorists tend to be of a different breed than Middle Eastern terrorists. Both are bad, but they're different. The only American terrorists with the organization to infiltrate the government aren't interested in infiltrating the government.


Quote:
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This is where I'm confused though. How are the Americans (and their allies) "the good guys" here? They trained and armed desperate people to do their dirty work, then they get angry when it comes around and bites them in the ass. Then Vietnam, another lovely example of Americans being nice. Again I fail to see how "good guys" and Americans are compatible phrases.
Yeah. That's kind of what I was trying to say. Everybody here seems to just assume that if it's American or allied with America then it's good. But if we look at bin Laden, America's number one enemy at the moment, we see that's not necessarily the case. I'm not trying to lay undue blame on America, but people seriously need to stop with this America-can-do-no-wrong kind of thinking.

Another good example is Saudi Arabia. The US set up the kingdom there so they could get the oil, and now everybody's complaining about how Saudi Arabia isn't cooperating. I don't like Saudi Arabia, but I do find it somewhat amusing that we basically tried to make it our pet and now complain that it's grown big enough to bite back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
Bin Laden is not evil... he's a terrible person with serious anger-management issues who's using his expert CIA training to get back at the people he hates most.
This is the problem with many americans. They don't understand that they're not "the good guys", and that their enemies aren't evil. If they did, they'd know how to stop terrorism.
Nobody's evil? That's odd. I've always been of the opposite opinion. Everybody's evil!

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Old 02-24-2004, 04:51 PM   #13
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Old 02-25-2004, 04:52 AM   #14
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"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once -- shame on -- shame on you... You fool me, can't get fooled again." - Bush demonstrating his way with words

http://www.dubyaspeak.com/audio.shtml
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Old 02-25-2004, 05:02 AM   #15
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I'd almost forgotten how funny Demolition Man was
And I'd almost forgotten about that horrible movie altogether--thanks a lot for remind me, dammit!

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Old 02-25-2004, 07:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once -- shame on -- shame on you... You fool me, can't get fooled again." - Bush demonstrating his way with words

http://www.dubyaspeak.com/audio.shtml
And people say Bush has no unilateral tendencies. Why, he speaks English as a foreign language.
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Old 02-26-2004, 12:32 AM   #17
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I think (oh great... how to spell it?) Schwarzenegger has been planning to be the president of the U.S. since he was a little kid in Austria. But he'll never be because we will definitely not amend the U.S. Constitution. It's just too hard to figure out what the heck this means:

"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

And even if someone can figure it out, it would never get enough votes
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Old 02-26-2004, 02:58 AM   #18
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Frighteningly I actually understand what thats on about... where the hell did I learn to read jibberish?
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