[Ninja Dodo]

May they suffer an untimely demise.

Seriously, that ranks right down there with manufacturing computer viruses. Messing with other people's enjoyment is not cool.

[Lucien21]

Finished the book.

[RLacey]

Ditto.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by Lucien21

Finished the book.

I've finished 5 books in the past week

1. The Mote in God's Eye - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
2. Eagle Strike - Anthony Horowitz
3. Scorpia - Anthony Horowitz
4. Ark Angle - Anthony Horowitz
5. Raven's Gate - Anthony Horowitz

All of which I can heartily recommend (and I won't spoil for anyone)

I plan to switch from Horowitz to some David Brin in the near future (Brightness Reef and Infinity's Shore followed by Heaven's Reach if I can find a copy)

The Harry Potter series has left me cold though. I felt number 5 was overly bloated so I found myself no longer caring too much about the later ones (I still haven't read The Half-Blood Prince)

The interesting thing about these books is there were a lot of "spoilers" available before the release date, a large number of which have apparently proved to be untrue (I don't know details on this, just that many of the "spoiler" events didn't occur in the actual book according to people that have read it and then looked at the pre-release spoilers)

If you see a spoiler on the internet can you rely on its accuracy?

[Spiwak]

Originally Posted by Squinky

The imminent release of Harry Potter 7 and all the hullabaloo surrounding it makes me think about the concept of spoilers and why everyone gets so hung up over them. I know a lot of people believe that knowing the ending of a story ruins one's enjoyment of it, and to be honest, I don't really understand why. Aren't the details leading up to the story's ending just as interesting as the ending itself? Isn't this why people reread books, or watch movies more than once, or sometimes even replay adventure games?

Discuss.

Having not read any of this thread beyond your initial post, I'd answer that the author or writer or whatever intended their work to be presented a certain way, in a certain order. When someone spoils the ending or some other plot point you're no longer reading the book as the author intended, because you know something that happens before you were supposed to, and therefore missing the surprise and the context for the event. I can perfectly understand why people get upset over spoilers.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

The Harry Potter series has left me cold though. I felt number 5 was overly bloated so I found myself no longer caring too much about the later ones (I still haven't read The Half-Blood Prince)

This isn't really the right thread for this, but (IMO) Order of the Phoenix is too long and mostly uninteresting; I'm convinced that Rowling and her editor could have pruned a good few hundred pages from it. The last two books are much better (though those who don't like any of the earlier books aren't suddenly going to be persuaded).

Originally Posted by stepurhan

If you see a spoiler on the internet can you rely on its accuracy?

No, but I tend to follow the view that spoilers are correct until proven wrong by first-hand observation. And, for that reason alone, I try to avoid them.

[Giligan]

I just finished Bitter Ocean, a book on the Battle of the Atlantic. Of course, there's no suspense, seeing as how I already know who wins.

It was such a pity about Macintyre's destroyer being sunk.

[Trumgottist]

Is this thread drifting a bit off topic? I've recently finished the two first books of Orson Scott Card's series about Alvin Maker. I liked them, and will probably start on the third tomorrow. Plan to get HP7 on Tuesday, when I'm going to the town to play in a medieval tournament.

[samIamsad]

Not sure what the trailers and movie posters looked like, but I wonder what watching From Dusk Till Dawn would have been like if I hadn't known about the

Spoiler:

VAMPIRES.

Amnesia NOW.

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

To the original question: the first time, I want to be manipulated, I very much desire to be driven by the story with no fore-knowledge of what's to become.

It doesn't matter that I've read a book or have seen the film more than once--those re-tellings are the re-living of the original experience, the magic that comes from the first discovery of that moment.

I've known for decades now that Luke destroys the Death-star, but I didn't then, the first time. It's the triumph of that first time that I cherish.

[Squinky]

In reply to most people here: well yes, of course there are some stories that are pretty much worthless without their unexpected plot twists. But my personal opinion is that if unexpected plot twists are all they have to go on, then they've failed as stories. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Spiwak

Having not read any of this thread beyond your initial post, I'd answer that the author or writer or whatever intended their work to be presented a certain way, in a certain order. When someone spoils the ending or some other plot point you're no longer reading the book as the author intended, because you know something that happens before you were supposed to, and therefore missing the surprise and the context for the event.

Does it really matter whether one enjoys a work the way "the author intended", or is it simply a matter of whether one enjoys it, period? And how do I know what the author intends for me to do, anyway?

[Ninja Dodo]

You'll never experience the story as fully as the first time before you know how it ends.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Squinky

In reply to most people here: well yes, of course there are some stories that are pretty much worthless without their unexpected plot twists. But my personal opinion is that if unexpected plot twists are all they have to go on, then they've failed as stories. Simple as that.

That's true obviously. But a good story can become an excellent story with a nice, shocking and surprising twist-ending. Most of my favourite books and movies contain twist-endings, so there must be something to them that really appeals to me.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by LadyLinda

Just think, let's say in the case of the movie, "The Sixth Sense", the ending would not have had the same impact if you knew it ahead of time.

I knew it ahead of time. I didn't enjoy the movie.

lumi brings up The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. When it came out, I knew absolutely nothing about the series. I went with my father and brother and watched it without any idea of where it was going. And I was enthralled. Each time a character was in peril, I truly believed that that character could die. And when it all spun out of control and the movie ended, I was left stunned. It was possibly one of the most amazing movies I'd ever seen.

When Return of the King came out, it was different. Not only had I read the book already, but I also read lots of reviews and comments about the movie on the internet because I was so excited. So when I went to theaters, I knew exactly what was going to happen, point by point. I could barely form my own thoughts about what I was seeing because every time I saw anything good in the movie it reminded me of what other people had said. It took a few years for me to get over the movie as fodder for debates and appreciate the movie as a movie.

When big things happen in comics, I typically stumble into comments about those twists online before I get to read the comics. So when I see the twist, I barely care anymore because I've already taken that for granted.

I don't even know what Citizen Kane's about, but I know about Rosebud! I've heard that twist spoiled over and over and over, in casual blogs and director commentaries for other movies and even a frakkin' episode of The Sopranos! Every time it's spoiled I tell myself, I'll just wait fifty years and then watch Citizen Kane. By that point, I'll have forgotten all about the surprise and be able to enjoy the movie. But it's a lie, made more blatant by each new time it's spoiled for me.

I couldn't even read the blogs I usually read without finding out exactly how The Sopranos ended. I haven't started watching the final season yet, and yet I already know the big idea for the end. I don't have any idea what my experience would have been like if I'd reached that ending myself, and now I'll never know. When I get to the surprise ending, I'll be so ready for it, with so many precooked opinions on it, that I expect it'll have close to no impact at all.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer prided itself on shocking status quo changes, but there were no surprises for me. Even before buying the DVDs (before which I'd never seen the show), I knew almost exactly how the last episode of the entire series was going to end because I'd read articles about the new Season Eight comic! And after watching the pilot of the show, I made the mistake of listening to the audio commentary, in which Joss Whedon said how proud he was of making sure viewers never knew what was going to happen next (bringing very specific examples from later on in the show which ensured that I'd know exactly what was going to happen next). More than half the special features on the whole series had significant spoilers! It took me a while to realize that I couldn't trust them, but even after that the DVD makers managed to spoil something!: there's a huge twist in one of the seasons, where an important villain at the end is a big surprise. That villain's photo was printed onto the disc itself for the first disc of the season!

Now, I loved Buffy anyway, because taken on their own the episodes are great and I didn't know how most of those individual episodes went. But I never had the chance to speculate where the series was going. Or to come to a brilliant episode like Once More, With Feeling and be blown away by the sheer audacity, rather than knowing from the very start that it would be coming up. Spoilers significantly detracted from my appreciation of the series, and I didn't even have any way to get away from them!

On Saturday, I stayed away from all potential sources of spoilers for Harry Potter. There was one guy I was chatting with who had already finished reading it, having gotten it off the internet days early. I refused to allow him to even bring the topic up. Then, when I got the book, I kept my distance from the idiots in the store who immediately ran to the back of the book, so that I wouldn't overhear them saying anything. Then I started reading and didn't go into a web browser, or glance at a newspaper, or check my e-mail, or talk to anyone at all until I'd finished the book (this morning). And it was a great experience. I was pretty scared at who might die, and when chapters ended with fake shockers, I fell for them. I was thrilled by each character, place and thing they brought back because I hadn't been expecting it. The emotional parts really got me because I didn't expect them. The big twist blew me away.


Are spoilers bad? You betcha. But it's not always possible to stay away from them, because people are idiots who don't know how to keep their big mouths shut!

[MoriartyL]

I wonder if it's possible to use hypnosis to erase memories of specific spoiled plots? That could make so much money.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Phantom

That's true obviously. But a good story can become an excellent story with a nice, shocking and surprising twist-ending. Most of my favourite books and movies contain twist-endings, so there must be something to them that really appeals to me.

I call it a "moment of clarity". We all love them. It's when you're confused by little things, or aren't seeing what's really happening, and then you do and you suddenly understand everything. It's not only in stories- also puzzles. Anyway, those moments are very powerful and yet are so delicate that they can be completely destroyed by just messing around with the order a little bit.

[Spiwak]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Does it really matter whether one enjoys a work the way "the author intended", or is it simply a matter of whether one enjoys it, period? And how do I know what the author intends for me to do, anyway?

A) Maybe not, but I'd say there was a reason the author wrote it the way they did. They're probably well aware of what will make it the most "enjoyable" (I prefer "effective") and structure the plot accordingly. Same goes for any good album or movie.

B) I imagine that in most cases the author intends for you to read the book from beginning to end the first time, as that's how they present the information. "Create your own adventure" books obviously break this rule.

In the end the artifice of any time-based medium is that you receive it in a certain order. Books are read from left to right. Movies are watched from the first frame to the last. Albums are listened to from the first track to the last. Obviously an artist can play with this, but even that's under the assumption that we normally experience these media in the fashion that we learn through acculturation. Isn't that why Firefly failed miserably when it was on TV? Or why Memento was so brilliant?

[Squinky]

Hmm. My only conclusion from reading these responses is that I must enjoy stories for different primary reasons than most people do. Maybe I've just had my brain addled from playing around too much with interactive narratives.

I'll concede that it is, indeed, not good to shout out spoilers to others, not because spoiling a story is always bad in and of itself, but because people are having the story revealed to them out of their own free will. I think people do it for the same reason that people suddenly erupt in misogynistic slurs when they come into contact with a feminist activist or joke about killing animals when confronted by a vegan: they revel in getting a rise out of people. Which can understandably be amusing, but it's an immature sort of amusing. *sigh*

Also, Mory, my reply to your point about Harry Potter is in the Harry Potter thread.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Squinky

I think people do it for the same reason that people suddenly erupt in misogynistic slurs when they come into contact with a feminist activist or joke about killing animals when confronted by a vegan: they revel in getting a rise out of people. Which can understandably be amusing, but it's an immature sort of amusing. *sigh*

I think it's far more often it's just far simpler than that. It's that whenever you experienced something significant, the least thing you want to do is to keep it for yourself and yourself only. You want to tell. Well, most of us anyway. No sociologist by any means, but how does it go... plenty things to write home about.

[MoriartyL]

sam's right. It's not meanness that's the problem. Most people who spoil stories aren't thinking about what they're doing at all. It's like when I play a great game and want to share it with everyone I can. When I like something, I always want other people to like it too, and I always want to be the person who shows it to those people. Maybe it's that we want to spread happiness, or maybe it's that we selfishly want to use the happiness they might get to bolster our own images. I dunno. But it's not malice.