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View Poll Results: Death Penalty
For 5 14.71%
Against 29 85.29%
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:08 PM   #21
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Criminals could work as call-centre staff! Truly a fate worse than death...
The outcry "I want to speak to your manager RIGHT NOW, you criminal!" was never more appropriate.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:13 PM   #22
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Oh, and the prisoners in Florida get minimum wage, but they don't get to keep all of it - most of it goes toward their prison expenses. But they are taxed, so this goes into the IRS. Florida doesn't have a state tax on income.
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Old 04-23-2007, 05:58 PM   #23
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Isnt a person who commits 30 small crimes far worse than somebody who comited one murder?To me it seems stupid that they can earn money.In the prisons they propably play poker, have big TVs, and dancing girls every saturday.It is not really punishment.

I gues this justice thing is one of these eternal questions that will never be answered

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Old 04-23-2007, 06:26 PM   #24
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Isnt a person who commits 30 small crimes far worse than somebody who comited one murder?To me it seems stupid that they can earn money.In the prisons they propably play poker, have big TVs, and dancing girls every saturday.It is not really punishment.
Spoken like one who has never seen the inside of a prison.

I worked at one very large on for a few months in the medical unit - I'm a nurse. We were out in the cell blocks daily. We treated guys who'd been 'ass-raped'. Fun, huh? Also guys who'd been stabbed by spoons, filed down into knives.

Do you know what it's like to be totally without privacy? Even using the toilet? Being watched 24 hours a day?

Prisons are no luxury, and not anyone's preferred way to spend time. Visits are twice/week if you've behaved, and didn't mouth off to one of the sometimes stupid and bully-like guards (some are really great guys, though). There are no big TV's, and no dancing girls, in fact, we nurses were the only females that most of the guys got to see at all during their stay. And even visits were behind bars, where they are observed.

They can and do play cards, though gambling is not allowed. And checkers and chess, though most read books - which have been censored - they can't have anything that might be titillating.

The money they do get from their work goes into an account for them which they can use to buy things from the commissary, like candy, cookies, etc. No magazines. Oh, and their mail is censored, even letters, so often they don't even get the mail that's sent to them.

I can't say that all prisons work the same as the one I worked in, but I doubt you'd find anything like you describe, except in the movies or TV.

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Old 04-23-2007, 06:53 PM   #25
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I know a few people who have been in prison, and it is true that they dont have any of the things i mentioned, i thought that things in America are different.I know 3 guys who have "ass-raped" an old man who later commited suicide becouse of that.And all these criminals who i know are actualy pretty nice people, and far more interesting than normal people.They are nice to their friends but torment everybody else, its sometimes really sad to see what they can do. Prison is not nice for them but it dosent make them better. It does not change them at all. I know a guy who has killed a person. He got 6 years i think (im not sure), and now he is " the king " in the small town where he lives. (he said that his time in prison was "alright" he had many friends there)
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:07 PM   #26
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We have a few cushy low-security prisons for people like the monied politically incarcerated, but by and large, criminals are in non-pleasant prisons. The lions share of them are overcrowded as well.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:53 PM   #27
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Death Penalty is the ultimate consequence of societies failures. To approve of it is to give up.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:03 AM   #28
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While it is tempting to blame all crimes on society's failings, it is seems a bit unrealistic to do so. People are unique individuals made up of complicated genetic code. Mental health advocacy groups have worked very hard to get mental illness recognized as a complicated spectrum of medical and chemical problems- not just emotional ones which can be fixed through counseling. I think they are right. Unfortunately, one cannot accept that idea and not entertain the possibilty that there may be a genetic component to crime. For example, psychopathy. It has a clear definition and diagnosis. So what causes it? Not all psychopaths grow up to be criminals, and not all psychopathic criminals are killers. It's simply a mental condition that exists.

I do believe that society and environment usually play a role in whether someone commits a crime or not (South Africa's terrible crime rate for example) but it would be pretty naive to deny that one's own genetic make up might also contribute to one's behavior and choices. It's an uncomfortable idea because historically, leaders and thinkers have used such ideas to justify eugenics and Nazism.

That said, I'm not opposed to the death penalty as a concept. It's not that I want to make criminals suffer, and it's not born of some religious need for retribution. For me, it's just a matter of public safety and good sense. I see absolutely no reason to keep some people alive, such as sexual psychopaths, repeat offenders of serious crimes, serial murderers etc. Personally, I'd rather these people be executed than given life in prison. What is the point of keeping someone alive if you've recognized that he's too dangerous to ever rejoin society or that if he does rejoin society he'll probably offend again as he's done three times before? It makes no sense at all.

My only reservation comes with the fact that the justice system is imperfect and there always remains the risk of executing an innocent person. However, I don't see why this is worse than allowing a guilty person parole, during which time he may well destroy another innocent life. I would bet that more innocent people are hurt or killed by recidivist criminals, than innocent people are wrongfully executed by the state.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:01 AM   #29
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My only reservation comes with the fact that the justice system is imperfect and there always remains the risk of executing an innocent person. However, I don't see why this is worse than allowing a guilty person parole, during which time he may well destroy another innocent life. I would bet that more innocent people are hurt or killed by recidivist criminals, than innocent people are wrongfully executed by the state.
I was with you until your last paragraph. What if that 'innocent' person were your father, or brother, or fiance. Would you agree then that it was okay to execute him? I think not. There have been several black men on death row, that have been released on DNA evidence - evidence that may have been available, but was denied presentation during their trial. Their only guilt was the color of their skin. And those in for life aren't granted parole, except for very unusual circumstances - often medical reasons.

Yes, recidivists are often the cause of more crime, and sometimes murder, but they aren't often the ones who murdered in the first place, but rather, stole property, arson, etc. Crimes against people, pedophiles, rapists (if they actually get jail time), and murderers don't get back out on the street very easily. And sex offenders wind up in registries for the rest of their lives.

I saw a story of a 16 yr old boy who was a relative neophyte to the internet, and unbeknownst to him, through certain iffy websites, had material downloaded without his knowledge to his computer - material which included photos of naked kids. He was arrested, his computer confiscated, and he was charged as a pedophile. Someone sharp at internet knowledge, was able to prove that everything there, could be gotten without the user's knowledge.
He was freed and got it expunged from his records, otherwise, even though proved not guilty, he would have been placed on the sex-offender's registry for the rest of his life.

My point? Innocents DO get arrested and charged with crimes they don't commit. Or they get mis-identified on a lineup - eye-witness accounts are notoriously inaccurate. There are many reasons as to how this can happen, but it really does happen, and the more high profile the crime, the more pressure the cops are to get a quick solution. Corners get cut, and sometimes innocents get convicted. That's why, when someone get a sentence of the death penalty, there is an automatic appeal. No one wants to execute an innocent person.

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Old 04-24-2007, 04:12 AM   #30
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But, do read the rest of that post... what of guilty people who get out on parole and end up raping, killing etc. again? The flawed justice system may have ended up giving them 15 years when it should have been life. And we can't just keep them in prison either since it's expensive and prisons (here, anyway) are horribly overcrowded as it is. My viewpoint may be somewhat clouded by the fact that I live in a violent country with a LOT of truly sick people.

There's no easy answer here.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:58 AM   #31
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Certainly innocent people get charged with and even convicted of crimes; they're victims of a shoddy justice system as much as others are. I did say the justice system was imperfect. But that goes both ways. Victims of crime have been let down by the justice system at least as much- and I maintain a good deal more often. For every wrongly accused rapist, I could probably show you 20 rape victims who did NOT receive justice or even a fair day in court. It's especially atrocious down here, where popular opinion supports the raping of girls in miniskirts because they're "asking for it." Schoolgirls often wear one piece swimsuits under their uniforms in the hopes that it makes sexual assault more difficult.

Have you ever actually looked at the rap sheets of a variety of sex offenders and/or murderers? I've had to do a lot of crime reporting in my career and they often have one thing in common: a list of collars that go back many years and include everything from petty theft to harassment and assault. If one were able to access juvie records, you'd probably find the exact same stuff (which gets magically erased when the perp comes of age.)

Case in point. A man went into a senior home and raped a 90 year old woman behind the chapel altar on Easter afternoon. He broke both her legs and might have escaped had he not been discovered by a nurse who called police. Fortunately they caught him, and the assault was reported just like any old assault. The thing is, I SAW his rap sheet. He had no fewer than 15 convictions for minor and major crimes over the last 10 years, including three prior sexual assaults. One of these was a case where he dragged a seven year old off her swing set and fondled her in the bushes for a while. The other two were attempted rapes on female joggers. Because there was no actual "penetration" he served no more than one year total for all three sexual assaults, AND he successfully petitioned the court to get out of a sex offender treatment program in exchange for an additional three months on his sentence. In addition to this, he had assault and battery charges, theft, and house breaking convictions.

Okay. This guy didn't commit one big crime that would get him put away for life. Instead, he injured and harmed numerous people throughout the years with crimes that, for whatever reason, are considered "less serious" by the courts. This felon's civil rights are well protected and the courts made damn sure that he served his measly amount of time- just to let him back out. He's just one man and his case isn't even all that outstanding. No one noticed him and he's already been forgotten. He's probably back on the streets by now.

My point, FGM, is that avoiding the death penalty simply because one is afraid that an innocent person- or even perhaps one whose crimes seem less serious- might be executed isn't sufficiently moving to me. Innocent people are harmed, maimed, robbed, terrorized, emotionally scarred, tortured, and dehumanized all the time by recidivist felons. If someone spends five years in prison for rape...how the hell does that help the woman who encounters him when he gets out? The courts are hoping that the prospect of going back to prison will be a sufficient deterrent, but that's a gamble. If someone has a psychological need to act out in a certain way, all the jail time in the world is not going to fix that.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:48 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther
Prisons are no luxury, and not anyone's preferred way to spend time. Visits are twice/week if you've behaved, and didn't mouth off to one of the sometimes stupid and bully-like guards (some are really great guys, though). There are no big TV's, and no dancing girls, in fact, we nurses were the only females that most of the guys got to see at all during their stay. And even visits were behind bars, where they are observed.
The money they do get from their work goes into an account for them which they can use to buy things from the commissary, like candy, cookies, etc. No magazines. Oh, and their mail is censored, even letters, so often they don't even get the mail that's sent to them.
I can't say that all prisons work the same as the one I worked in, but I doubt you'd find anything like you describe, except in the movies or TV.
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FGM is very right; the stuff that you see in the movies is much glamorized.

I have worked as a Probation Officer and a Parole Officer, neither are very glamorous. As a Probation Officer I managed a case load that had 250“clients” (a term we used instead of criminal). When I worked for Probation and Parole both we would go in with the Sheriff’s department and “shake down” cells. Meaning that we would go in a check every crack and crevasse in the cells, we would take out things that clients had made.

I myself have pulled out of cells, large staples that go in boxes, where the clients had filed them down using the concrete blocks that line the cell walls. Toothbrushes, clients had taken and filed the end of it down to make it sharp, then they would take something sharp and place it in the end of the toothbrush. We took clients socks because he had taken his bar of soap and put it in his socks, so when he would get into a fight he would use it to hit someone. The soap in the sock when it makes contact with the skin it leaves hardly any marks.

In my experiences in the jails, the females are much more vicious then the men. The female side of the jail is run just like the male side, except the jails that I have seen the jail will have male correction officers in a booth that over looks the female jail, and female correction officers patrol on the inside, the male officers are not to come into contact with the females, but that is not always how things go either. But like FGM I can’t speak of the jails that I have seen.

I also agree with FGM about some of the guys being alright. When I was a Probation Officer I had several “young” guys ages 18-22, that where in the wrong place at the wrong time, they where mixed up with the wrong crowd. After being on Probation the guys would turn themselves around. But a lot of the guys and girls that are in our jails today where brought up in that turmoil or had a family history of that kind of life and this is all they know.
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Old 04-26-2007, 02:39 PM   #33
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Count me in as another "not against" type. I wouldn't actively advocate introducing capital punishment in a country which doesn't have it, but I don't see anything inherently wrong in having it.

I'll be the first to agree that no one, including the state, is entitled to murder others no matter what they did. Except that, without any context on how we define "murder", this is just a comfortable slogan. Not every killing is a murder. Think abortion. Euthanasia. Killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield. I bet most of you will find at least one of those examples a morally acceptable killing. So why not death penalty (provided the law allows it only in sufficiently rare cases)?
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Old 04-26-2007, 05:56 PM   #34
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A couple of interesting things in California:

New Execution Chamber Infuriates Lawmakers (there's a reason why beyond the death penalty position)

California's prison system is set up for 100,000 inmates and it now has 173,000 inmates. Needless to say, California has an overcrowding problem (as do other states).

I've been to a minimum security prison when I was in vet school (in Taylorsville, IL if I remember correctly). It had a dairy herd and we went there to palpate the dairy cows when I was on my amubulatory rotation. It was really interesting. Of course we brought sharp objects with us (needles, scalpel blades) and they had to account for everything but overall all of the inmates who worked in the dairy were quite friendly. Of course it was minimum security.
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Old 04-26-2007, 08:06 PM   #35
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Count me in as another "not against" type. I wouldn't actively advocate introducing capital punishment in a country which doesn't have it, but I don't see anything inherently wrong in having it.

I'll be the first to agree that no one, including the state, is entitled to murder others no matter what they did. Except that, without any context on how we define "murder", this is just a comfortable slogan. Not every killing is a murder. Think abortion. Euthanasia. Killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield. I bet most of you will find at least one of those examples a morally acceptable killing. So why not death penalty (provided the law allows it only in sufficiently rare cases)?
Those are good points and I also am not necessarily against, but in the end, the death penalty really doesn't compare to your analogies in my view.

Abortion? Pro-choice folk believe that this is keeping a life from existing, and so you're not 'killing' a life. (Introducing pro-lifers here complicates matters, I admit.)

Euthanasia: this is usually chosen by the intended dead, and someone else is simply the implementer.

Soldier on the field: kill or be killed. You were trained and thrown onto the field, and so you do what you must to protect yourself.

The death penalty is weighed against this person we already have in a cage who can harm nobody as long as we keep them captive. We decide, "okay, this is a sentient being that we control, but have decided should no longer live".

Of course, it's more than that. We have that penalty as a deterrent against others that would do the same. That begs the question--is it an effective deterrent? Is it any more effective than a stoning in a third world country?
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:50 PM   #36
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Those are good points and I also am not necessarily against, but in the end, the death penalty really doesn't compare to your analogies in my view.
True, and I didn't mean to imply they are really 100% analogous situations. Just that they all are undoubtedly intentional killings (with a possible exception of abortion, depending on your stance on what "life" is), but that doesn't make them automatically wrong.

That said, I think death penalty is not dissimilar to euthanasia. Even in the cases when the latter is the person in question's will initially, it still involves a perpetrator who makes an irrevocable decision that a given person would be "better off" killed (better for themselves in case of euthanasia, better for society in case of death penalty).

And then there is of course the deterrent factor, as you said. I don't know how successful it is compared to other forms of punishment. It'd be interesting to see some data concerning that.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:54 PM   #37
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Speck, you just brought up a very good point - just what is the rationale for the death penalty?

1. deterent for others?
2. permanently prevent this person from harming others?
3. the ultimate punishment for the crime?
4. revenge for the injured?
5. simple PR for the justice system - "See, we got rid of this bad guy!"
6. other reasons...

Ted Bundy while on death row was finally convinced to assist authories in locating the bodies of those he had killed. During this stretch, it was assumed that his execution could be delayed a bit to facilitate this. But it was not to be - he was executed on the date scheduled, regardless of the fact that a week or two more might have settled many questions for victims' families and the authorities. Who did this execution serve?

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Old 04-27-2007, 06:19 PM   #38
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That said, I think death penalty is not dissimilar to euthanasia. Even in the cases when the latter is the person in question's will initially, it still involves a perpetrator who makes an irrevocable decision that a given person would be "better off" killed (better for themselves in case of euthanasia, better for society in case of death penalty).
As far as I know, the "irrevocable decision" is never made by the "perpetrator" (I would use the term "implementer"), but by the intended. I'm thinking Kevorkian here--perhaps we're not on the same page. I'm not aware of non-elective euthanasia happening in the civilized nations.
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Old 04-27-2007, 06:22 PM   #39
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Speck, you just brought up a very good point - just what is the rationale for the death penalty?

1. deterent for others?
2. permanently prevent this person from harming others?
3. the ultimate punishment for the crime?
4. revenge for the injured?
5. simple PR for the justice system - "See, we got rid of this bad guy!"
6. other reasons...

Ted Bundy while on death row was finally convinced to assist authories in locating the bodies of those he had killed. During this stretch, it was assumed that his execution could be delayed a bit to facilitate this. But it was not to be - he was executed on the date scheduled, regardless of the fact that a week or two more might have settled many questions for victims' families and the authorities. Who did this execution serve?

FGM
Well it certainly served to some points because we knew quite a bit, but I agree that knowing more would have been better.

I see your first three list items, but not your last three (1 and 3 being more or less the same). Revenge (justice served for the family, etc.) is a byproduct.
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Old 04-29-2007, 05:52 AM   #40
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As far as I know, the "irrevocable decision" is never made by the "perpetrator" (I would use the term "implementer"), but by the intended. I'm thinking Kevorkian here--perhaps we're not on the same page. I'm not aware of non-elective euthanasia happening in the civilized nations.
If by "non-elective" you mean "against one's explicit will", then you're probably right. However, there are also examples of assisted deaths where the intended is unable to commmunicate their will, if conscious at all. Cf. Terri Schiavo.
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