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Old 04-08-2007, 12:39 AM   #1
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I finally procured The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It's supposed to be my reading material for my trip to San Francisco next week but I couldn't resist starting it tonight. I could eat this book! Dr. Dawkins is a highly respected evolutionist, is the Charles Simonyi Professor of Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University, has written several successful books, and is an outspoken (i.e. very controversial) atheist.

He and author Sam Harris (who is also an atheist and a PhD candidate in neuroscience) pretty much say everything (and far more) that I've been thinking all along about the improbability, irrationality, and superfluousness of belief systems that insist on an all powerful, omnipresent, and meddling god; the stupidity of dogma; the idea that the universe is only 6000 years old; that Christ will return in 50 years and rapture his believers who in turn will witness the destruction of the world as we know it; that you will be rewarded with 72 virgins in heaven if you fly your hijacked plane into a skyscraper at 400 miles per hour and take over 3000 people with you; that a zygote in a petri dish has far more of a right to exist than an eight year old girl suffering from a debilitating spinal cord disease and for whom stem cell research would otherwise hold incredible medical possibilities.

Oh, and I loved that Dr. Dawkins used Bertrand Russell's brilliant teapot analogy as a powerful argument against the existence of god.
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:05 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens View Post
Oh, and I loved that Dr. Dawkins used Bertrand Russell's brilliant teapot analogy as a powerful argument against the existence of god.
Is it short enough for you to write it up here? I'd be interested in hearing it.
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:17 AM   #3
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I always thought it was funny how people who prove that something can't exist that couldn't be proven to exist to begin with.
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:38 AM   #4
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Is it short enough for you to write it up here? I'd be interested in hearing it.
He explained the teapot in a nutshell (...oh, ha!) on an NPR interview. I'll look it up and transcribe it very soon.

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I always thought it was funny how people who prove that something can't exist that couldn't be proven to exist to begin with.
Well, we all know of those magic tricks involving smoke and mirrors and sophistry, don't we? Still, it's amazing how something imaginary (that is, unsubstantiated by scientific evidence) could be so powerful as to cause the massacre of millions and millions and millions of people over the course of millenia.

I'm also bemused as to how powerful and destructive these three 'cults' (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and, if you count Mormonism, makes four) have become considering that they essentially came from exactly the same source, and that the core principles, which are still being practiced today literally unchanged and unchallenged (frightening), began in the Bronze Age!
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Old 04-08-2007, 09:26 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by lumi View Post
Is it short enough for you to write it up here? I'd be interested in hearing it.

"Shit. I knew I should've taken a right turn back in Yonkers."

Okay, lumi, I found it: Fundamentalist Religion and Science | NPR

Basically, Dr. Dawkins states that philosopher Bertrand Russell came up with the teapot story as a powerful counter to the point that "...many people make when they say, 'Well, you can't disprove God.' ...and so some people take that to mean that therefore the likelihood of God's existing is about equal to the likelihood that He doesn't exist, a kind of 50/50. You can't prove it either way that He doesn't exist, you can't prove that He does....so it's like tossing a coin. I don't think it's like tossing a coin and Bertrand Russell's teapot story illustrates that.

"He said, 'Suppose I was to tell you that there is a large china teapot in orbit around the sun, which you can't see with telescopes because it's too small. You cannot disprove the teapot, but that doesn't mean that you should regard the likelihood of the teapot existing as equal to the likelihood that it doesn't exist. Nobody in their right mind would believe that there is a large china teapot orbiting the sun. There's no positive reason why they should believe it, and exactly the same is true of God. That seems to me to be an absolute, knockdown reply to the statement of 'well, you can't disprove God, therefore you might as well believe him as likely as not'."



Oh, and btw, the flying spaghetti monster is the contemporary equivalent to the teapot story.
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Old 04-08-2007, 09:35 AM   #6
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For some reason that reminds me of the 'Babel Fish and Existance of God' part of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:

'"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and white is black and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. While most leading theologians believe this argument to be a load of dingo's kidneys, that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid from using it as the central theme of his best-selling book, Well That About Wraps It Up For God.'
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Old 04-08-2007, 09:40 AM   #7
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Old 04-08-2007, 10:22 AM   #8
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...the idea that the universe is only 6000 years old; that Christ will return in 50 years and rapture his believers who in turn will witness the destruction of the world as we know it; that you will be rewarded with 72 virgins in heaven if you fly your hijacked plane into a skyscraper at 400 miles per hour and take over 3000 people with you; that a zygote in a petri dish has far more of a right to exist than an eight year old girl suffering from a debilitating spinal cord disease and for whom stem cell research would otherwise hold incredible medical possibilities...
Okay, I'm all for respecting other people's beliefs and all, but any religious person who actually believes the above in a literal sense ought to be smacked.
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Old 04-08-2007, 11:53 AM   #9
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Dr. Dawkins ... is the Charles Simonyi Professor of Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University,
Ah, yes... that would be the position that he does sod all in because he's far too busy pissing on religion at every available opportunity.

I wouldn't mind, but every time I've heard him speak he's come from the position that God doesn't exist and thus everyone is stupid, rather than actually trying to explain why God doesn't exist and why a belief it in it stupid.

And, personally, I find it rather tactless to bring this up on Easter Day, but anyway...

[/rant]
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Old 04-08-2007, 12:23 PM   #10
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I am a firm believer in a God (Though I cannot find any established religion that does not go against it's core beliefs in one way or another. Truly disappointing) and do not mind the fact that others lack the faith I have. The fact though is when the atheistic groups try to force their beliefs on others they become no better than the groups they are against.
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:37 PM   #11
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I am a firm believer in a God (Though I cannot find any established religion that does not go against it's core beliefs in one way or another. Truly disappointing) and do not mind the fact that others lack the faith I have. The fact though is when the atheistic groups try to force their beliefs on others they become no better than the groups they are against.
Well, I could counter by asking if there are any atheist lobbyists in Congress, if there are atheists harassing people on the street with soapboxes and megaphones, if there are tele-atheists broadcasting to millions to send them money or else they'll do something extreme *, if there is actually an atheist college that requires admittants to sign a contract accepting its ideas and then grooms its student body specifically to apply its fundamentals, graduate, and infiltrate Congress, Capital Hill, and the White House with aides and other staff **, if there are atheist missionaries preaching to uneducated and uninformed sub-Saharan African villagers to NOT use condoms, while 4 million people all around the country are dropping like flies from AIDS every year ***.

I mean, I'm not at all trying to be nasty here, but sooner or later you do have to ask yourself: How much damage and bloodshed over millenia have atheists caused compared to Christianity, Islam, or Communism (which is really basically a political religion and one in which, as Carl Jung pointed out, God was conveniently replaced by the masses)?



* Oral Roberts actually did that except he threatened that God will kill him if he didn't raise enough money. He raked in millions on top of the already existing millions his audience poured over him.

** Oh yes, there is such a college, except it's a Christian institution. It's called Patrick Henry College, located in Virginia.

*** The Vatican strictly condemns abortion, thus the missionaries, who are so far the ONLY source of information on preventitive measures for these African villagers, instruct them to avoid condoms and abstain from sex, and that's after they tell them about the virgin birth of Jesus.
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:55 PM   #12
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Well, I could counter by asking if there are any atheist lobbyists in Congress, if there are atheists harassing people on the street with soapboxes and megaphones, if there are tele-atheists broadcasting to millions to send them money or else they'll do something extreme *, if there is actually an atheist college that requires admittants to sign a contract accepting its ideas and then grooms its student body specifically to apply its fundamentals, graduate, and infiltrate Congress, Capital Hill, and the White House with aides and other staff **, if there are atheist missionaries preaching to uneducated and uninformed sub-Saharan African villagers to NOT use condoms, while 4 million people all around the country are dropping like flies from AIDS every year ***.

I mean, I'm not at all trying to be nasty here, but sooner or later you do have to ask yourself: How much damage and bloodshed over millenia have atheists caused compared to Christianity, Islam, or Communism (which is really basically a political religion and one in which, as Carl Jung pointed out, God was conveniently replaced by the masses)?



* Oral Roberts actually did that except he threatened that God will kill him if he didn't raise enough money. He raked in millions on top of the already existing millions his audience poured over him.

** Oh yes, there is such a college, except it's a Christian institution. It's called Patrick Henry College, located in Virginia.

*** The Vatican strictly condemns abortion, thus the missionaries, who are so far the ONLY source of information on preventitive measures for these African villagers, instruct them to avoid condoms and abstain from sex, and that's after they tell them about the virgin birth of Jesus.
Well, Athiests DO have lobbiests
and I really do not agree with almost all established religion. When you mentioned who has a right to live, the zygote or the suffering child in my eyes they both do. The question is if it is moral to kill one human life to save another, and I'm real iffy on a lot of that since their are other sources of stem cells.
Oh and true Communism by it's definition is Athiest, Catholics and Roberts are insane, their are athiests using the courts to harass Christians, and the REAL reason that their is a huge AIDS problem in Africa is that the established traditional means of birth control is anal sex which by the way raises your chances of infection expotentially(something to do with blood, I'll have to look it up again)

Did I mention you are adorable Trepsie?
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:08 PM   #13
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I always thought it was funny how people who prove that something can't exist that couldn't be proven to exist to begin with.
If that comment is about Dawkins then I'm afraid you're mistaken.
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Oh and true Communism by it's definition is Athiest
What?
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Their are athiests using the courts to harass Christians
Where?
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and the REAL reason that their is a huge AIDS problem in Africa is that the established traditional means of birth control is anal sex which by the way raises your chances of infection expotentially(something to do with blood, I'll have to look it up again)
Anal sex has a higher rate of infection. Expotentially... huh? The practice is taboo in most African countries, so I'd also like to see some evidence for the popularity of the practice. Condom use is low in these countries, and the Catholic church tells people it's a sin, doesn't seem unreasonable to assume it has an effect.
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Ah, yes... that would be the position that he does sod all in because he's far too busy pissing on religion at every available opportunity.
Because he has written one book out of, what? Four books in the last decade that isn't about furthering the public understanding of science, although it contains quite a lot of science. Not including text books, and similar works he co-writes or edits. Not to mention the essays, lectures, and interviews.

Of course, someone who doesn't know that he never says God doesn't exist, but only that it's irrational to believe a deity exists without evidence, probably hasn't actually listened to him or read his works.

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Old 04-08-2007, 03:11 PM   #14
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I love being irrational, but I hate being irregular. Makes me hurt inside
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:14 PM   #15
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I mean, I'm not at all trying to be nasty here, but sooner or later you do have to ask yourself: How much damage and bloodshed over millenia have atheists caused compared to Christianity, Islam, or Communism (which is really basically a political religion and one in which, as Carl Jung pointed out, God was conveniently replaced by the masses)?
I, personally, don't believe that it's a cause of religion itself, but a distortion of religion in an attempt to serve the whims of power-hungry people. Organized establishments are neither good nor evil; they are simply nothing more and nothing less than powerful tools. Whether these tools are used to help the poor and oppressed or to cause bloodshed and suffering... well, that's up to humanity, really.

Oh no, we're having a religious debate again. *cringes*
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:22 PM   #16
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quick, someone say Nazi!
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:30 PM   #17
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I really hate to go here but,
BBC
I am also humbled by the fact they found the primary cause was medical and drug hygiene
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:31 PM   #18
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quick, someone say Nazi!
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:37 PM   #19
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From an interview with Bill Moyers:

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You just singled out three groups--Orthodox Jews, fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Muslims. Why? What do you see that they have in common?

They have in common a belief that they know the mind of God. The young man who killed the prime minister of Israel said, "What I did, I did for the glory of God." He killed the prime minister of Israel for the same reason that the Islamists want to kill Rushdie. General Boykin has been going around the country in uniform talking about a holy war against Islam. They believe they know the mind of God. And when you believe you know the mind of God, you've got no room for compromise in the United States Senate or the United States House of Representatives or on the street corner. Truth becomes absolute. And absolute truth, like absolute power, is a terrifying sword.
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Hovering over the whole series is the general question, is religion a salvation or poison? Ultimately, what do you think?

I would have no way of measuring whether it's been more poison than salvation. You look over the whole span of history, and you see that if it weren't for the Hebrew prophets, Israel would not have been redeemed. You look over the whole span of history and see, nonetheless, that jihadism is part of the Muslim experience and the Crusades are part of the Christian experience and that religion has been used as a heavy bludgeon to compel and kill other people. On the other hand, religious believers fought for justice. Religious believers fought slavery. Religious believers fought for the Civil Rights movement.

Faith and reason are embedded in the basic cells of the human experience and human history. And constantly trying to understand them, trying to come to terms with them, trying to see how they can co-exist together and how they do co-exist together in each and every mind is one of the great experiences of being a journalist.
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Old 04-08-2007, 03:47 PM   #20
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Interesting... thanks for that.
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