[rlpw]

I still stand by the fact you cannot cut religion out of the American system. If by no other means than the fact that they are the majority. Though with some of the stuff I'm reading we might soon become the minority. Read the 'Belief in God'

(On an interesting note, the fastest growing relgious base in the US is Wicca/Neopaganism. neat

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by rlpw

It is when the Church is run by the State as in China and Cuba.

No, it isn't.

Now don't get me wrong Aj, Communism looks good on paper but if you REALLY look it winds up being a forced idealism on it's people.

Capitalism looks good on paper, but when you implement it, their are no invisible hands, it doesn't work. Wealth consolidates, there is very little movement between classes. People controlling the means of production and so on. Why are you even writing this, when is this a debate on whether communism works or not? I'd rather talk to someone who knows what it is.

And The US was founded on Christianity, You should read The Federalist Papers, it helps when you know the history of a country.

Madison was an author? Franklin, Jefferson, and Washington were also involved. Perhaps you would like to quote where the Federalist Papers say the Unites States is founded on Christianity?

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

But that still leaves the question of whether it's rational to belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster any god.

About as rational as it is to believe in such abstract concepts as love, I guess.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

I sense a lumping of Christians as one big group who all have the same agenda. There are many Christians who don't like the fundamentalist hold on the government (and who will hopefully vote in 2008).

Didn't anybody read my Bill Moyers interview...

I did, and despite not being Christian, I agree with this sentiment.

[rlpw]

Wow do I have to eat some crow. Well, a leg at least.

After reading about 1/3 of the Fed Papers I can only pull together parts where Christianity was a balancing force in early Feudal systems and how some semblance was adopted from this (Basically the Legislative and Judicial Branches) and literally seems to hold a neutrality and stand off stance toward adding to much religious substance to their work.( thisnation.com is fantastic!)
So Aj, Trep, and others, I must humbly concede this part.

But as for China, look at this

[jacog]

God Hates Figs

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by rlpw

But as for China, look at this

Very interesting. Just goes to prove that what's truly important is that people have a choice in what they believe in.

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by jacog

God Hates Figs

Uh oh

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Very interesting. Just goes to prove that what's truly important is that people have a choice in what they believe in.

wow, that was very Matrixy

And if Capitalism doesn't work and Communism does, how come the US has a better standard of living than any Communist country? I don't see America having to plant rice by hand and rationing goods while their leaders live high on the hog.
I just want to know, Does anybody read Animal Farm or Brave New World in school anymore?

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by rlpw

wow, that was very Matrixy

Originally Posted by rlpw

Does anybody read Animal Farm or Brave New World in school anymore?

I did. (And 1984, too.) But that was about five or six years ago. Things could've changed by then...

[Lucien21]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I don't see America having to plant rice by hand and rationing goods while their leaders live high on the hog.

Nah they just work minimum wage with no health benefits while the Directors etc pull in millions in wages.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Squinky

About as rational as it is to believe in such abstract concepts as love, I guess.

During my mid 20s I was heavily into Objectivism (my then boyfriend introduced me to it by giving me a copy of The Fountainhead and wooing me as an individual akin to Howard Roarke, though I secretly wished I were Dominique Francon instead so Howard Roarke could ravish me by force in a key chapter). Eventually I got sick of the philosophy (no sense of humour being one of the reasons) and moved on. However, there were some seriously strong (though at times flawed) ideas to be reckoned with. This is one of them:

A proper loving relationship, when one values proper things and integrates them into their own self fully (e.g. valuing honesty, one must become honest, valuing rational independence, one must not be co-dependant) will blossom into an amazing and easily life long relationship full of complete admiration and respect. A proper loving relationship, since to say "I love you" one must have a clear concept of "I" and a clear concept of "you" can not come from two people who fear being alone, who don't like spending time with themselves, who perpetually seek to be distracted from dealing with their own innate boringness, it must come from two independent intelligent people sure of themselves both doing what they most want to do.

A proper loving relationship comes from where the individual rational self interest of two people meet, no one giving up any part of themselves for the sake of a 'relationship' but both of them forming a profound and amazing relationship based on the thing most important to each of them.

- from What is Love, a brief topical expounding by a member of the Objectivism Online forum

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by jacog

God Hates Figs

I wouldn't be surprised if He hates teapots as well.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Hookay, peepz, if you have about 11 minutes to spare...


Dawkins is the cute one on the right. Hmmm, could've sworn there was a
teapot on that table before I linked this image....

Richard Dawkins BBC Interview | BBC News, 11 October '06 (YouTube video)

Hey rlpw, there's a part where Dr. Dawkins knocks down religion over nationalism and political ideology. Let's watch it and see what you guys think.

[rlpw]

While he hasn't changed my belief system I would love to burn that terrible tie of his. Talk about nails on a chalkboard, that tie is just that.

[SSH]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

He and author Sam Harris (who is also an atheist and a PhD candidate in neuroscience) pretty much say everything (and far more) that I've been thinking all along about ...; the idea that the universe is only 6000 years old; that Christ will return in 50 years and rapture his believers who in turn will witness the destruction of the world as we know it; that you will be rewarded with 72 virgins in heaven if you fly your hijacked plane into a skyscraper at 400 miles per hour and take over 3000 people with you; that a zygote in a petri dish has far more of a right to exist than an eight year old girl suffering from a debilitating spinal cord disease and for whom stem cell research would otherwise hold incredible medical possibilities.

Of course, for many Christians, this is a list of Straw Men that its easy for any atheist to knock down and try to discredit the whole of Christian belief by taking the easy targets that only a few whackos believe. Using a Straw Man is a fallacy, as any student of logic will tell you and rather discredits the authors of the book.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by rlpw

And if Capitalism doesn't work and Communism does, how come the US has a better standard of living than any Communist country? I don't see America having to plant rice by hand and rationing goods while their leaders live high on the hog.
I just want to know, Does anybody read Animal Farm or Brave New World in school anymore?

It's not a situation of one or the other, I can't remember posting "communism works" in this thread or any other. There's never been a communist state as Marx describes one, there might never be one. Lets not forget where China and Cambodia came from, the people were living in poverty before and after communism. The US is the only super power in the world, and it constantly bullies every other country. Capitalism is really working well for the South Americans... so well that they're turning left quickly. There's plenty of Americans living in poverty with no health insurance.

Originally Posted by SSH

Of course, for many Christians, this is a list of Straw Men that its easy for any atheist to knock down and try to discredit the whole of Christian belief by taking the easy targets that only a few whackos believe. Using a Straw Man is a fallacy, as any student of logic will tell you and rather discredits the authors of the book.

Over half of the US don't believe that evolution has happened. There are states where performing abortions is dangerous, and more difficult than it's worth to the doctors. Bans on stem cell research have popular support. And get this, about 80% of them believe someone was born of a virgin, was able to fly, and had the ability to become undead! Over half believe the rapture will happen, many in the next 50 years. It's only a Straw man fallacy when it's a misrepresentation of their position.

[rlpw]

Capitalism is starting to work well for the Chinese too!

[Aj_]

It's amusing you would point to an article that describes an extreme minority of ultra rich.

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by Aj_

It's amusing you would point to an article that describes an extreme minority of ultra rich.

Isn't it! But it is becoming what happened to Russia back in the late 80s. Sooner or later the people will get sick of not having a say in their government while finally realizing that Communism is an overly corruptible system. They will either try to clamp down, collapse, or have a civil war.