[rlpw]

LMAO

Their is also a book you should read on Google book search called HIV/AIDS in South Africa that for some reason will not let me link to it. The more I read though, the more I am terrified by the fact that most AIDS in Africa isn't from sexual transmission. Maybe we should be sending them better medical supplies. I think they are focusing on the wrong end of the stick, figuratively speaking that is.
As for Communism being atheistic I will stand by that remark. I was actually of age when Communism was at it's height and Russian congregations had to meet in secret and pray that the police didn't find out. Or now where if you do not go to an 'approved' church in China you can be thrown in prison. Thank god i live in a country that was founded on the right to your religious expression(even if most of them are nuts.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by rlpw

Well, Athiests DO have lobbiests

Based on your findings, how much influence do these atheist lobbyists have on Congress compared to Christian lobbyists, Jewish lobbyists, or other religious lobbyists?

...and I really do not agree with almost all established religion.

But you yourself claim to believe in God. Or did I misunderstand, and you actually meant that you're a deist as opposed to a theist?

Just to clarify, atheism is NOT a religion. Both Dr. Dawkins and Sam Harris emphatically point out that religion is by its very nature is based on beliefs for which there is no scientific evidence. I'll elaborate on this in a bit, I want to find the specific passages.

When you mentioned who has a right to live, the zygote or the suffering child in my eyes they both do. The question is if it is moral to kill one human life to save another, and I'm real iffy on a lot of that since their are other sources of stem cells.

This one's from neuroscience PhD candidate Sam Harris's Letter to a Christian Nation:

Originally Posted by Sam Harris

A three-day-old embryo is a collection of a 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 150,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembering, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs [given prior permission by him, natch] and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.

Originally Posted by rlpw

Oh and true Communism by it's definition is Athiest...

What definition? What dictionary or encyclopedia are you working with? As I stated, Carl Jung specifically pointed out that in communism, in effect, God is replaced by the masses. Now, it may become secularized that way in consequence, but the behaviour of this organization is practically indistinguishable from religion per se. That is, the belief (i.e. the worship) is transferred from a deity onto an idea.

And we all know that historically, to challenge such an idea is punishable by imprisonment or death. Which also happens with bona fide religion - defy it and you are burned at the stake, or you might as well be.

Catholics and Roberts are insane...

LOL! We both agree there. And I was raised as a Catholic. Now, however, I hover between deism and atheism.

their are athiests using the courts to harass Christians...

As Aj_ asked, so do I. Where?

...and the REAL reason that their is a huge AIDS problem in Africa is that the established traditional means of birth control is anal sex which by the way raises your chances of infection expotentially(something to do with blood, I'll have to look it up again)

I think Aj_ has beat me to put a damper on this supposition.

Did I mention you are adorable Trepsie?

I love you, too, sweetie. However, sometimes I'm about as adorable as a shrew (and all times the same size as one). I was raised a Catholic, but now, like you, I find organized religion to be disgusting. But unlike you I'm now at a crossroads in that all my doubts past and present have been profoundly articulated by both Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, and I'm still struggling. I'm in that grey zone between being a deist and an atheist (my oldest sister, btw, is a full fledged atheist). As for theism, here's my subsersive take on it:
Man created God in his own image.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Squinky

I, personally, don't believe that it's a cause of religion itself, but a distortion of religion in an attempt to serve the whims of power-hungry people. Organized establishments are neither good nor evil; they are simply nothing more and nothing less than powerful tools. Whether these tools are used to help the poor and oppressed or to cause bloodshed and suffering... well, that's up to humanity, really.

Exactly. That's what I've been thinking for years! And that explains my subsersive take on theism: Man created God in his own image. But that still leaves the question of whether it's rational to belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster any god.

Oh no, we're having a religious debate again. *cringes*

I know! Isn't it just delicious?!!

[rlpw]

If you haven't read anywhere where an Atheistic group is trying to push religion out of the normal day to day lives of people you must have been living under a rock. I know it is not as prominent to folks who believe it's the right thing to do but I feel it as a suppression of rights while others have put religion in the same category as smoking.

Now I on the other hand have been basically agnostic most of my life. I had a belief in god somehow happen while watching NOVA on PBS of all things. I refuse to push my belief system on others and hate the idea of others doing the same. I have read a lot on Gnosticism and Dualism but still cannot find my place in the world. I am looking forward to getting a copy of Nag Hammadi, I really want to read what the orthodox churches suppressed.

And, I cannot help myself here, If the religion of the masses is a humanistic approach does that mean Humanism is, in itself, a religion?

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by Squinky

I, personally, don't believe that it's a cause of religion itself, but a distortion of religion in an attempt to serve the whims of power-hungry people. Organized establishments are neither good nor evil; they are simply nothing more and nothing less than powerful tools. Whether these tools are used to help the poor and oppressed or to cause bloodshed and suffering... well, that's up to humanity, really.

Oh no, we're having a religious debate again. *cringes*

The suicide bomber really believes he is going to heaven. The catholic priest thinks he's saving souls when he tells people it's a sin to use condoms. They might be dishonest, but only to themselves. Religions, belief systems based on irrational supernatural claims, are dangerous.

There are very good reasons why we should treat others how we would like them to treat us, against slavery, for charity, and they're rational.

If some people want to choose comfort or ignorance, then that's up to them. If someone doesn't want to know if they have cancer, I can understand that. Children aren't getting a choice, they're labelled and indoctrinated from an early age.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by rlpw

If you haven't read anywhere where an Atheistic group is trying to push religion out of the normal day to day lives of people you must have been living under a rock. I know it is not as prominent to folks who believe it's the right thing to do but I feel it as a suppression of rights while others have put religion in the same category as smoking.

Uh, no.

Most atheist groups I've heard of are trying to push religion out of *their* day-to-day lives. As in, they're trying to ensure that people have the right to be free *from* religion, too. When you're Christian, it can be easy to overlook how much there is in American society that assumes Christian belief on the part of Americans.

Even other religious folk are subject to this, not just atheists. I used to chat regularly with a Jewish lady who would tell me anecdotes about the difficulty of dealing with Christian assumptions in day-to-day US living.

While there's a few "militant atheists", just like there are militants of any other belief system, most of the ones I know aren't overly concerned with whether other people are religious... they just wish to have the right to not have religion shoved in their faces or feel ostracized because they're not Christian. So it's not a suppression of rights so much as it is a reclaimation of rights.

Originally Posted by Aj_

There are very good reasons why we should treat others how we would like them to treat us, against slavery, for charity, and they're rational.

I heartily agree with this. I always get irritated when people claim that you need to be religious to be moral. I find that a lot of morality is pragmatically and logically sound already. Additonally, part of the reason I'm not religious is that I feel too many religion's moral codes cause problems where "the cure is worse than the 'disease'" and actually makes it *harder* to "be excellent to each other". Being non-religious leaves me freer to help and make other people happy, IMHO.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by rlpw

If you haven't read anywhere where an Atheistic group is trying to push religion out of the normal day to day lives of people you must have been living under a rock. I know it is not as prominent to folks who believe it's the right thing to do but I feel it as a suppression of rights while others have put religion in the same category as smoking.

Where "normal day to day" activities mean you want to subject one religion on everyone else, by using the state, fascism. Suppression of your rights to have Christianity smeared all over state run services? Give me a break.

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Originally Posted by rlpw

If you haven't read anywhere where an Atheistic group is trying to push religion out of the normal day to day lives of people you must have been living under a rock.

Wow. No.

First, it's not just athiests, it's also people of other faith-based belief systems. And they're not trying to squash anything, they simply don't want to be forced to observed one single belief system.

This all sounds entirely fair to me.

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by Aj_

Where "normal day to day" activities mean you want to subject one religion on everyone else, by using the state, fascism. Suppression of your rights to have Christianity smeared all over state run services? Give me a break.

But the United States government is based on Christianity like it or not. I swear how just the word God is offensive to people. If you read the Federalist Papers you will see that the Constitution was written for the People to be able to freely express their religious beliefs. This was due to the fact of the Americas were colonized by several different religious sects at the time and did not want to be forced to a standardized State run chuch.(Which was common in Europe at the time.

Oh, by the way I heard a thing the other day(you saying Fascism made me remember)

The difference between Fascism and Communism in the eyes of a shoe-shine boy:
Fascism; Shine my shoes boy if you know what's good for you. Do what I say or I'll kill you!

Communism; We know it's best if you do as we say and shine my shoes. Now do what I say or I'll kill you.

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Originally Posted by rlpw

But the United States government is based on Christianity like it or not.

Meaning what, that we should toe that line forever more? That was hundreds of years ago! That was then, this is now.

Do I have to remind you that our forefathers came here to escape religious persecution?

I swear how just the word God is offensive to people.

Not me. I'm tired of being told that because I don't believe in your god that I am somehow offended by or intolerant (oh, the irony) of your particular belief system.

I simply ask that in my day to day life, I am not forced to endure your dogma.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by rlpw

If you haven't read anywhere where an Atheistic group is trying to push religion out of the normal day to day lives of people you must have been living under a rock.

Wrong. Atheists, as Jeysie pointed out, not only want themselves to be left alone by these meddling Christians, and not only want to get away from being forced to live according to Christian ideas as Specksie stated, they also want ANY AND ALL KINDS of religions banned from influencing the government in any way, shape, or form.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by rlpw

But the United States government is based on Christianity like it or not. I swear how just the word God is offensive to people. If you read the Federalist Papers you will see that the Constitution was written for the People to be able to freely express their religious beliefs. This was due to the fact of the Americas were colonized by several different religious sects at the time and did not want to be forced to a standardized State run chuch.(Which was common in Europe at the time.

Although the constitution was written by deists aswell? The word isn't offensive, God is offensive. Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. The common view is this was put in place because many colonists were oppressed by state churches that were the common arrangement in most of Europe. And isn't this always the counter-argument "but this is a christian nation", could anything sound more like fascism?

Communism; We know it's best if you do as we say and shine my shoes. Now do what I say or I'll kill you.

Christian communism can't be described as atheist, and I really don't see anarchist communism telling a "shoe-shine boy" what to do. Anyone saying that the US is based on Christianity is probably not going to have trouble confusing Stalinism with communism like the later is always the former.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by rlpw

If you read the Federalist Papers you will see that the Constitution was written for the People to be able to freely express their religious beliefs. This was due to the fact of the Americas were colonized by several different religious sects at the time and did not want to be forced to a standardized State run church.

And yet, it seems like Christianity is trying to be the US's standardized State run church at the rate we're going. I find it depressingly ironic that a state that had religious freedom as one of its founding points is starting to turn into a place where being a religion other than Christian is considered eccentric at best and being athiest or agnostic makes you just downright traitorous.

But then, IMHO few people in the US give a damn about the Constitution any more. If they did, many of the morality and rights debates in politics wouldn't even *be* debates.

Sometimes my overseas friends ask me why I love the US so much... to which I tell them, "The constitutional principles this country was founded on were, if not always perfect, still something to be proud of, IMHO. It's just that most of the political groups see fit to flip their finger at them."

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by rlpw

But the United States government is based on Christianity like it or not. I swear how just the word God is offensive to people.

Erm, no.

The religious views of the Founding Fathers are of greatest interest to propagandists of today's American right, anxious to push their version of history. Contrary to their view, the fact that the United States was not found as a Christian nation was early stated in the terms of a treaty with Tripoli, drafted in 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams in 1797:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The opening words of this quotation would cause uproar in today's Washington ascendancy.

The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least.

- Richard Dawkins

If you read the Federalist Papers you will see that the Constitution was written for the People to be able to freely express their religious beliefs. This was due to the fact of the Americas were colonized by several different religious sects at the time and did not want to be forced to a standardized State run chuch.(Which was common in Europe at the time.

Yes, that is true historically. But one theory that Dr. Dawkins brings up is that America is in truth a nation of immigrants. These immigrants, for wanting stability and comfort in family and community, like what they used to have in Europe, immediately turned to their religions. However, it looks to be that instead of stepping back to question the religion's very validity and re-assessing it in terms of all the possibilities available to them in a brave and free new world, they fell back into it wholesale, and as consequence bringing in all the hatred, bigotry, and destructive self-righteous conceit attributed to that religion.

[rlpw]

I'm sorry but you cannot (I wasn't meaning to offend anyone by the way) just simply rip religion out of a country that was founded on the basis of religion. This would be like forcing the majority of Americans to be Vegitarians, it's not going to happen.
I will concede that their are fundamentalists psychos that spout crazy stuff and thump their bible and seem to think that somehow that makes them legitimate but that is what is great about America, the right to be as nuts as possible. (cough,coughpatrobertsoncough) but I will defend their right to be nuts.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I'm sorry but you cannot (I wasn't meaning to offend anyone by the way) just simply rip religion out of a country that was founded on the basis of religion. This would be like forcing the majority of Americans to be Vegitarians, it's not going to happen.
I will concede that their are fundamentalists psychos that spout crazy stuff and thump their bible and seem to think that somehow that makes them legitimate but that is what is great about America, the right to be as nuts as possible. (cough,coughpatrobertsoncough) but I will defend their right to be nuts.

Who said anything about forcing the majority of Americans to start thinking? Who said anything about gagging crazy fundies? Is this another one of your red herrings after being outted as living in non-factual bizarro-land?

[rlpw]

Christian communism can't be described as atheist, and I really don't see anarchist communism telling a "shoe-shine boy" what to do. Anyone saying that the US is based on Christianity is probably not going to have trouble confusing Stalinism with communism like the later is always the former.

It is when the Church is run by the State as in China and Cuba. Now don't get me wrong Aj, Communism looks good on paper but if you REALLY look it winds up being a forced idealism on it's people. China found that out and is trying to go open market without conceding authority and it, like Russia, will sooner or later implode due to the fact that you cannot give freedom to people and then not expect them to ask for more.

And The US was founded on Christianity, You should read The Federalist Papers, it helps when you know the history of a country.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I'm sorry but you cannot (I wasn't meaning to offend anyone by the way) just simply rip religion out of a country that was founded on the basis of religion.

Except that... it wasn't. Constitutionally, the US has always been firm on keeping religion and state separate, so people would be free to be (or not be) whatever religion they choose.

The fact that the US has become a de facto Christian country is an oddity, IMHO, not purposeful design.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I'm sorry but you cannot (I wasn't meaning to offend anyone by the way) just simply rip religion out of a country that was founded on the basis of religion.

I'm sorry, but again, that's an awkward declaration. The historical fact is that many of the Founding Fathers who created the Constitution, etc., including Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and Thomas Paine were themselves secularists. Jefferson himself had remarked: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Ditto James Madison: "During almost fitteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

The United States was, for the most part, founded on a secularist notion of the freedom to practice whatever religion you want, including the freedom to not practice it at all.

Perhaps they could have written it a little better so as not to confuse people.

[Melanie68]

Remember there's an election coming up... (and the Republicans, of which many fundamentalist Christians are members, aren't exactly popular).

I sense a lumping of Christians as one big group who all have the same agenda. There are many Christians who don't like the fundamentalist hold on the government (and who will hopefully vote in 2008).

Didn't anybody read my Bill Moyers interview...