[remixor]

Originally Posted by Curt

Remixor, my point that the system over in the US is faulty was simply an off-shoot to my astonishment that initially BJ pointed the finger at certain tourists, who have different systems, some how creating a poorer populace of servers through their ignorance of the system. I simply pointed out that it is a fault within the system.

You clearly disagree and don't think there is a fault in the system with your following comment:

"And the reason I am so protective of this particular system is that it allows people in the food service industry to make a living wage."

Applying the minimum wage would have a much more secure effect for the workers, especially with all those tight tourists around. Never mind. Keep burying your heads in the sand. It's no wonder Bush got in.

Why, because I and my evil tipping ways voted for him? Despite your last sentence, I'd like to avoid turning this into an American bash-fest, because I'm kind of sick of those. Believe it or not, I am an extremely liberal person. Look, the point isn't whether I think the system is perfect or not, it's the fact that realistically, it's better for servers to just tip them rather than to vainly hope that they'll get a minimum wage. I agree with you in principle, it's just that there are far worse wrongs that need righting, and it's not fair to a server not to tip them just because one doesn't agree with the system. It's not going to change anything, all it's going to do is ensure that they're losing a percentage of their wage for that particular meal.

[D.C.]

Curt: lol

Consider my tipping questions answered.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by remixor

Why, because I and my evil tipping ways voted for him? Despite your last sentence, I'd like to avoid turning this into an American bash-fest, because I'm kind of sick of those.

No, I retract the last part about Bush. It was uncalled for, Sorry.

I also didn't intend to come across as American-bashing, that wasn't my point. I do wish that sometimes that some of the Americans posting on this forum wouldn't take a criticism of their system of government or aspects of their society as personal attacks on them as citizens of the US.

Maybe one of the big differences of the culture of the US and that of many European countries nowadays is that we still feel in Europe that the worker has a voice. We in Europe are accustomed to making a big fuss over certain laws/regulations that we see as unjust (take the British poll tax demonstrations or the many French workers disputes as examples). The minimum wage was something that was hard won in the UK, and we were one of the last to introduce it in Europe (as always), so we weren't so great until recently in that area either. Still there are people who don't think it's fair enough even now. Many also said it would severely harm industry, increase prices, blah, blah, blah - it hasn't. It actually helped the economy as now more people had more to spend on the products they themselves were producing, supplying or whatever. But there are still plenty of areas where we still need to modernize for the betterment of all in our society. There always will be.

One thing that is certain is that nothing will change in the US system if people just accept things as they are. It may be hard, it may take a while, but some things are worth fighting for - fair pay is definitely one of those things. Any reliance on gratuity is never dignified and it's a shame that it's such a necessity in a modern, civilized society.

Again- I'm not saying don't tip. That was never the issue of this whole discussion for me.

[BacardiJim]

Dammit, Curt, are you only reading every other word of my posts? For the third time: Any negative comments from me about any nationalities was directed only at those individuals who know what the tipping customs and system are here in the USA and still refuse to abide by them. I bear no animosity toward most undertipping foreigners because I fully understand that tipping is not the practice in their homelands. I actually did manage to learn a little cultural relativism while studying Anthropology.

I specifically mentioned Germans and Dutch and Quebecois people because in my 25 years in the industry, working everywhere from strip clubs to beer bars to fine scotch & cigar bars to blues clubs to island resort/tourist bars to big-time-money country clubs to four star Hyatt hotels, it has been my experience that visitors of those three nationalities tend to be the most notorious and flagrant about knowing perfectly well how tipping works here and refusing to "get with the system" anyway.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Dammit, Curt, are you only reading every other word of my posts?

Oops! Did I explain badly again. I still don't think they can be blamed for not getting with a system that they maybe don't agree with. I'm sure many are skinflints. But just as many are probably too set in their ways and conservative. Nothing will change my opinion that it is the system, and not the customers, who are at fault though. The onus should be on the employers. In Europe we are raised to see tips as something that the servers earn as extra as a result of their good, helpful and polite service. It's more a bonus than a necessity. I can understand why some fail to see the importance in the US even when they know why.

I fail to see what the study of Ants has to do with all this though. Are they bad tippers too?

[BacardiJim]

Ha

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

One more thing: American waiters/waitresses talk to the money. If you want service, just wave you Visa in front of their nose. Cash won't help, because only those with a credit card have human rights in the USA. Everyone else is considered a pontential criminal.

Uh...huh. I really hope you're trying to be sarcastic. Waving your credit card under your waiter's nose will make them think you're a total jerk, and you'll probably get terrible service. I'd suggest (and I know this is an odd concept) being nice to them instead.

[Zygomaticus]

The best (and cheapest) way to get good service is to be nice. More than being showered with tips, nothing makes a person/waiter feel better than being respected.

A waiter has never based his service to me (or my family) based on his "potential tip". Hisher tip was based on his competence, which in turn was based on our treatment of him/her.

[Fairygdmther]

There is an ad on TV now that really annoys me. It is an obviously overworked waitress, and her customers are bidding for her attention by telling her in advance the percentage of the tip she'll receive if she waits on them first. I realize that it's a crap shoot for the server, trying to guess who'll give the best tip, when he/she needs to choose who to go to first, or give the best service to. She/he doesn't want to offend the potential best tipper, yet can't give really good service to everyone. Women in groups, traditionally, are considered to be bad tippers. I've been party to this bias, yet always tip well. Male servers tend to give women better service, perhaps thinking that flirting might help his chances to get a better tip. Getting good service doesn't always ensure a good tip for many reasons: lousy food, crowded restaurant, feeling rushed, fawning server, poor attitude of the server, or more subtle things: don't like their looks, had disagreement with fellow diners, diner doesn't have enough money with him/her, credit card rejected payment, and now they have to pay cash. Most of those things the server has no control over, yet they affect what they'll receive. No one is ever going to get rich in food service, though they may do a little better in a ritzy place.

FGM

[syntheticgerbil]

I meant you wouldn't be as obligated to be polite on minimum wage. I mean as long as your boss doesn't notice, everything is fine in minimum wage jobs simply. The tipping puts the responsibility into the waiter's hands.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by tabacco

Uh...huh. I really hope you're trying to be sarcastic. Waving your credit card under your waiter's nose will make them think you're a total jerk, and you'll probably get terrible service. I'd suggest (and I know this is an odd concept) being nice to them instead.

Don't worry, I don't have a credit card.

But what I don't like, is when I go to a store, have $200 in my pocket - and nobody takes me seriously. In cases like that, I have said: "I do have money, you know..." I've never got terrible service.

[ysbreker]

First of all: I hereby apologize for all the dutchies: yes we are a bunch of greedy bastards who never ever tip or when we tip, we tip lousy. Sorry we can't help it, it's in our cultural genes...

Originally Posted by syntheticgerbil

I meant you wouldn't be as obligated to be polite on minimum wage. I mean as long as your boss doesn't notice, everything is fine in minimum wage jobs simply. The tipping puts the responsibility into the waiter's hands.

If you think you can be less polite to a customer when you get a minimum wage, then you're not good for the job anyway, so that argument for the tipping system is a bit useless

btw: I never heard of this orange juice with beer thing. are you sure they were dutch?

[syntheticgerbil]

Nah, I can get away with it. I really can.

[D.C.]

I didn't want to start another "SerialFreak goes to LA" thread so I thought I might as well post here... my passport arrived today. I was getting worried that it was lost in the mail due to the fact that it was posted last week. The photo looks pretty damn stupid.

[DustCropper]

What are you going to do in LA?

[D.C.]

Originally Posted by DustCropper

What are you going to do in LA?

The usual stuff that tourists do. The first chunk is pretty much going to the theme parks that surround LA. (Disneyland, Knotts, Six Flags: Magic Mountain, and Universal Studios) After that we'll probably spend a few days in Los Angeles and it's surrounding areas. (Hollywood and Santa Monica.)

[DustCropper]

Originally Posted by SerialFreak

The usual stuff that tourists do. The first chunk is pretty much going to the theme parks that surround LA. (Disneyland, Knotts, Six Flags: Magic Mountain, and Universal Studios) After that we'll probably spend a few days in Los Angeles and it's surrounding areas. (Hollywood and Santa Monica.)

Ahh, nice. I live a little bit south of LA, at a university in Irvine, but I've just moved here so I can't really tell you much about the area. But here are a few things I've enjoyed.

One nice place that I visited this summer was Venice Beach, I think that's nearish to Santa Monica. It has a nice little boardwalk with artists, shops, muscle builders, etc. Kinda made me think of Haight Street in San Francisco. But I was there in the summer, I'm not sure if there's any activity during the winter. Another nice place in LA is the Getty Musem. Admission is free, though you have to pay for parking if you have a car ($5). The museum doesn't really have any amazing exhibits, but since it's up on the hillside you get a really nice view, especially on windy days, because that's when the smog blows away. Plus I found the architecture of the whole place to be pretty impressive.

Hollywood is interesting too. We got tickets to see a live recording of a sitcom (free, of course) which was somewhat entertaining. As for the Knotts amusement park, I've done that as well. It was in October so they had a Halloween theme -- very entertaining. Plus I rode my first rollercoaster there. 8-) So ya, you'll have a good time. Unfortunately I haven't had the time nor the money to try any of the other amusement parks like Universal Studios, Disneyland, Magic Mountain, etc but one day I will.

And if you get the chance to go a bit south, a really beautiful beach worth checking out is Laguna Beach. But I haven't been to any beaches this winter (just got back from a vacation myself) so I have no idea what they're like this time of year. Certainly too cold for a swim.

Anyway, hope you enjoy your vacation

[D.C.]

I probably would have gone to Griffith Observatory because I've heard it has awesome views of the city although it's closed until 2005 I think. It would be cool to get a good view of the city so we might go to the museum. I didn't even know Knotts existed until it was pointed out to me. Disneyland should be cool just because it is world famous and Magic Mountain is suppose to have some awesome coasters. Universal Studios looks like it's going to be awesome. I checked the ticket website to see if we could watch a sitcom but they had already been sold out or had finished filming for the season. I think it would be cool to see Jay Leno though. Do any other locals have suggestions?

This vacation should be cool but university starts the day after I return to Australia.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by SerialFreak

I probably would have gone to Griffith Observatory because I've heard it has awesome views of the city although it's closed until 2005 I think. It would be cool to get a good view of the city so we might go to the museum. I didn't even know Knotts existed until it was pointed out to me. Disneyland should be cool just because it is world famous and Magic Mountain is suppose to have some awesome coasters. Universal Studios looks like it's going to be awesome. I checked the ticket website to see if we could watch a sitcom but they had already been sold out or had finished filming for the season. I think it would be cool to see Jay Leno though. Do any other locals have suggestions?

If you ever want tips on visiting Disneyland, let me know

[D.C.]

Thanks, That would be cool. Are there any general things a visitor should know?