[Starflux]

To get back on the real important stuff: mayonnaise is great, no doubt, but you wanna know what really gets me turned on? Applesauce. No kidding. I put it on everything.

[Erwin_Br]

Hmm, I've only been on one of those pre-arranged bus-trips once and I can assure you two things:

-It's never explained WHY you have to tip. They only say that it's custom or something simple like that. So blaim the tour operators
-I've never seen anyone drink Orange juice and beer together.

Next time I'll remember to tip 15% instead of 10%. I'll also tell them to fight the system, because they're being screwed.

--Erwin

[BacardiJim]

You're right, Dom. It was an exaggeration, but I thought it might drive home the point. And there is no way in hell that the government (either federal or state) is going to change the law so long as the food service industry can afford to lobby legislators and food/beverage service workers can't really come up with any political/economic leverage of their own. This is America, where wealth makes right. Maybe things should be different, but it isn't going to happen. Don't punish the exploited by condemning them for participating in the exploitive system when there is so much unemployment in the US.

And it did, in fact, take strikes and a "revolution" to change the laws in the two states that changed them.

[Swordmaster]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

This is America, where wealth makes right. Maybe things should be different, but it isn't going to happen.

Now, that sounds a bit too oppressed. I thought the U.S. was still, despite all the evidence on the contrary, a democratic nation ruled by leaders chosen in open elections of universal and equal suffrage. If the workers won't do anything about their wages, they can hardly expect the government or the employers to do anything about them either. Maybe I'm utopistic, but living in a country of strong, established unions it's difficult to see why anyone would work under the conditions you mentioned and not try to change them.

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by Flux

But I looooove that mayonnaise though 8-) (it's ketchup that I don't understand. Some people drown their fries in it! :shock: )

Exactly!

[Curt]

It's extremely clear that this is a subject that is very close to your heart, BJ. Your defence of the humble worker is admirable. Just to make my point absolutely clear, I wasn't attacking the worker. I was only taking issue with the fact that you seem to want to imply that the customer is in the wrong here, when in actual fact you do the worker no great service by ignoring the fault of the system. Sure, the customer can help by supporting the tipping system, but who do they really help in the long run?

If two states can get the system changed then I see no other reason why, in a democracy, the other 48 can't follow too.

And I'd bet that for every employer that runs a fair tipping share for their staff, there is another who abuses this system and takes advantage of the employees (especially in cases where the servers are immigrants who don't feel they are in a position to make a fuss- which I'd bet is a very large number). Fighting this could yield great benefits for all employees and tips would merely become a bonus. As your figures point out, things have only been getting worse over the years, not better.

Using the argument that unemployment is high doesn't work - it merely highlights even more the need for fair workers rights to protect them from abuse in such times.

Is this really the kind of democracy that the US wants to export all over the world?

[BacardiJim]

In the two states where a large enough portion of the economy is dependent on entertainment/tourism (and therefore servers and bartenders) the change was made after a lot of struggle and only because the workers in those fields could wield some economic leverage. Unions developed that could actually threaten restauranteurs and therefore the entire state economy. Can you imagine Las Vegas or L.A. with 1/4 of the restaurants and bars closed down?

However, a "bartender's strike" wouldn't have near the impact in, say, Kansas or Wyoming where little of the state economy depends on the entertainment/tourism trade and where many of the restaurants and bars are family-owned anyway. (As opposed to corporate-owned.) Add to that the strong anti-union sentiment that exists as a political philosophy in most of the "right-to-work" states, and there is absolutely no mechanism for change other than altruistic legislators deciding to screw over the corporations that pay for their elections by telling them that they have to triple the salaries of their employees.

Such legislators can kiss any chance of re-election goodbye.

Is this the kind of "democracy" I want to see exported to the rest of the world? Hardly. Is is a simple truth that America is, by any practical definition, as much of a plutarchy as a democracy. Wealth makes right here. I do what I can by voting in every election, keeping myself politically educated and informed, and speaking out on issues in an attempt to inform others.

To the majority of Americans, this makes me a wacko. *shrug*

[Swordmaster]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

To the majority of Americans, this makes me a wacko. *shrug*

BJ -> <- SM

Do not even think about getting funny about those abbreviations.

[BacardiJim]

Do not even think about getting funny about those abbreviations.

I'll leave that to Tamz, Swordmaster.

[Lagomorph]

This is an interesting discussion that motivated me to do a bit of research.

A guide to tipping: http://www.tipping.org/TopPage.shtml

A couple interesting articles on the subject:

http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/07/pf/tipping/

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/f...ravel/tipping/

[D.C.]

This has turned into a pretty entertaining thread! I was worried about posting it in case people thought it would be a stupid question... I guess Australians (Well this Australian atleast) aren't the only ones confused by the system. When you think about it a 15% tip isn't very expensive considering that the prices are suppose to be cheaper.

[Jake]

Its funny that people arent going to pay tips because of outlooks like Curt's. It's not like many (most?) Americans in America are unaware of the fact that the minimum wage is ridiculously low, its not like everyone thinks the tipping system is brilliant. It's actually quite ridiculous, but you not paying a tip to your server will do absolutely nothing to "change the system." It would be nice if something slightly less ridiculous would take the place of the tipping system, but as it is now, that is the system we use, and even if you don't respect or approve of it, you're going to have to play by it in America or you're just hurting the servers (who you already seem to feel are getting ripped off) more.

Surely all your own countries have at least one or two traditions or concepts that, despite being ridiculous or stupid, are just part of the way of life where you live. America unfortunately just happens to have more of them than usual at the moment, due to our nation's mysterious ability to have its rulership be hijacked by total tools with a few exceptions for the last 30 or so years. One of those concepts happens to be tipping, and at the moment if you don't do it, you're not helping anyone.

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by Jake

Its funny that people arent going to pay tips because of outlooks like Curt's. It's not like many (most?) Americans in America are unaware of the fact that the minimum wage is ridiculously low, its not like everyone thinks the tipping system is brilliant. It's actually quite ridiculous, but you not paying a tip to your server will do absolutely nothing to "change the system." It would be nice if something slightly less ridiculous would take the place of the tipping system, but as it is now, that is the system we use, and even if you don't respect or approve of it, you're going to have to play by it in America or you're just hurting the servers (who you already seem to feel are getting ripped off) more.

In the short run, you hurt the servers, yes. But if you stop tipping it might induce them to rise up against the system? If so, it might be a good thing. (Edit: I don't mean that's a valid excuse to stop tip, I only mean if there were a day or so were *everyone* would refuse to tip, as to pin down the problem)

Here in Sweden it is extremely rare (as Henke pointed out) that you tip anyone, which in my opinion is much better system.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by Jake

Its funny that people arent going to pay tips because of outlooks like Curt's. It's not like many (most?) Americans in America are unaware of the fact that the minimum wage is ridiculously low, its not like everyone thinks the tipping system is brilliant. It's actually quite ridiculous, but you not paying a tip to your server will do absolutely nothing to "change the system."

I doubt very much whether people will stop paying tips just because of having a similar outlook to mine, Jake. I still pay tips - I just have a tendency to pay what I've always been used to paying, as I said.

My initial opposition was to BJ's accusation that certain European visitors are tight where tipping is concerned. To many of us it's normal to act in the way we are accustomed. It's great credit to SerialFreak that he's taken the time to consider such a thing. My criticism of the US system is an off-shoot of that discussion and certainly wasn't intended to cause offence in any way, and I apologize if it did.

As for US tourists in Europe, why do you think we are so accepting of you guys? Because you tip so great of course. You guys just can't help yourselves either.

[Erwin_Br]

So why is it you don't have to tip the people at the McDonalds while you're expected to tip the people at the Diner around the corner?

--Erwin

[tabacco]

For one thing, McDonald's employees make quite a bit.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

For another thing, McD's is over-the-counter service, not table service. It doesn't make sense to tip fast food service, where the undercurrent modus operandi is 'hurry-up-and-get-to-the-next-customer'.

[syntheticgerbil]

My friend is a waiter and he loses mucho dinero if he is ever stiffed. He gets $2.25 an hour and is expected to have the people in the High Rollers Lounge he works at pay well according to their social status.

Waiter's strive for this stuff. They usually make the direct contact and reassurance necessary for a fatter wallet. So if there's one thing the tipping system will insure you, it's better service.

But you probably will be a bit discriminated against if you look like a dirty teenager without sufficient funds.

And I do think they should rid America of this system, and I think if everyone started an anti-tip conspiracy, it would work. I would not however, want to see people who live off waiter's jobs lose their apartments because of it.

You know though, without the tipping system, the waiter could just not care about you and still make his minimum wage without any worries. They would no longer be so obligated to be as prompt or polite. With tipping I can sort of buy a friendly face, no matter how fake it may really be. The person might be thinking what a filthy half-wit I am, but my coins have got their lips pursed in that wonderful toothy glow.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Think about that, fellow Yankees. Are you tipping enough?

I generally eat in places where my friends work, and I am absent-minded, so I fail to tip today and give them a 50% tip tomorrow.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I have a habit of tipping 15% at restaurants, but 20% at my favourite watering hole. Works in the end, the bartenders usually buy me a martini now and then 8-) . (Oh, and it helps that I bring them chocolate truffles occasionally)