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Old 01-31-2004, 08:14 AM   #21
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I agree with Curt.

Oh, and I didn't know about the 15%. I only tipped 10% during my stays in the US. :eek:

I hope the folks at Metro Diner at 102W/Broadway in NYC didn't spit on my French Toast every morning because of that

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Old 01-31-2004, 08:36 AM   #22
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We don't tip much in Estonia either. I only do it in one particularly good patisserie with a very good service (once I even tipped 25%, but usually below 10%), and I haven't been there for a long long time since it's quite expensive already without tipping.

BJ, I expected the minimum wage to be higher in USA. What's the average?
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Old 01-31-2004, 08:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
I just think it's wrong to blame the tourists, who by the way are already helping the economy by choosing the US (or whatever country) as their holiday destination. BJ's abhorrence should be aimed at a system that leaves employees in such a vulnerable position in the first place in my opinion.
I think people who live off tips have the right to complain about people who don't tip or tip inadequately so consider yourself forewarned. Try lecturing someone you just left a bad tip to that the reason they are not making a livable wage is the inadequacy of their government. In their eyes, the poor-tipping customer is the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
Don't they have unions?
Unions in the U.S. are generally localized (mostly in the Northeast and Midwest) and usually don't extend to service economy employees. Anti-union sentiment is huge where I live (North Carolina) and will never likely gain hold here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
The onus is on the employers and unfortunately, from what BJ is telling us, the US system has a major loop hole that leaves employees vulnerable to exploitation - that, frankly, in this day and age is a disgrace.
The system is what it is right now and so the onus to tip is on the paying customer. So no matter whether you're a visitor here or a citizen, tip at least 15%.
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:13 AM   #24
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There are only unions for servers/bartenders in California and Nevada, which is why those are the only two states where those employees make $5.15. The servers could unionize in those two states because they completely depend on the tourist industry. (Actually, Hawaii may have a servers union too. I'm not sure.) Servers and bartenders are absolutely essential to the economies of those states, and that gave them enough clout to unionize and force a higher wage.

That wouldn't work anywhere else in the US. If you threatened a strike, there are five single mothers waiting to take your job. And even if no "scab" took the position, the employer could afford to shut down for a week or two until he found people who were willing to cross picket lines. If you shut down for two weeks in Las Vegas, you might as not bother trying to re-open.

Finally, I want to point out that I was actually praising SerialFreak for taking the time to investigate tipping in the USA before he came here. My "abhorrence" is only directed at those who are fully aware of the 15-20% standard and refuse to abide by it anyway. It just so happens that in my 25 years or so in the business, I have found the Dutch and the Germans to be the most frequent abusers of the system.
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:19 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
In reality, any tip should be appreciated, no matter how small.
Curt: let's say you and megs eat out in my restaurant and your bill is $50. That means the government is going to make me pay taxes on a $5 tip regardless of how much you actually tip me. In my tax bracket, that means I lose about $1.50 to the government before you ever bring out your wallet.

Now, why don't you explain to me just how "appreciative" I am supposed to be if you leave a $1 tip? That means that besides making less than 1/2 the national minimum wage, I have actually paid money out of my own pocket for the privilege of being your waiter.

You can guess exactly where you can stick your "any tip should be appreciated, no matter how small."
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:26 AM   #26
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Why have none of the Dutch in this thread mentioned McDonalds??? I wanted to tarantino-quote you!
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:28 AM   #27
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Hungry for a Royale with cheese? Or Le Big Mac?
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:29 AM   #28
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That's 'cause you don't have to tip at Mickey D's.
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BacardiJim
Curt: let's say you and megs eat out in my restaurant and your bill is $50. That means the government is going to make me pay taxes on a $5 tip regardless of how much you actually tip me. In my tax bracket, that means I lose about $1.50 to the government before you ever bring out your wallet.

Now, why don't you explain to me just how "appreciative" I am supposed to be if you leave a $1 tip? That means that besides making less than 1/2 the national minimum wage, I have actually paid money out of my own pocket for the privilege of being your waiter.

You can guess exactly where you can stick your "any tip should be appreciated, no matter how small."
I think it's a very bizarre system you have over there, where the customer is basically expected to directly pay the employees wages. Here minimum wage is minimum, and people tip only based on quality of service and not the inequalities of the tax/pay system. Thats probably why we europeans come across as cheap tippers, we just don't get it.
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:33 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BacardiJim
Curt: let's say you and megs eat out in my restaurant and your bill is $50. That means the government is going to make me pay taxes on a $5 tip regardless of how much you actually tip me. In my tax bracket, that means I lose about $1.50 to the government before you ever bring out your wallet.

Now, why don't you explain to me just how "appreciative" I am supposed to be if you leave a $1 tip? That means that besides making less than 1/2 the national minimum wage, I have actually paid money out of my own pocket for the privilege of being your waiter.

You can guess exactly where you can stick your "any tip should be appreciated, no matter how small."
My point is that your systems reliance on tipping is extremely flawed. Much better for those workers that they are guaranteed a minimum wage, no? Rather than having to rely on the generosity of the customers - which as you clearly point out is not reliable in all cases.

I say again: it's a majorly flawed system that is to blame. There will always be employers who will exploit it, and there will always be customers who will exploit it.

It seems two states have it right and 48 have it wrong. Blaming customers won't alter that. *(uncalled for comment deleted)
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:37 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BacardiJim
Hungry for a Royale with cheese? Or Le Big Mac?
"You know what they but on french fries in Holland instead of ketchup? Mayonnaise. I've seen 'em do it man, they fucking drown 'em in that shit."
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:37 AM   #32
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Only farm workers and food/beverage service people are exempt from the minimum wage here in the USA.


I do understand that this system and idea are strange and foreign to visitors from outside the US. I wouldn't have lasted in the business so long if I didn't grasp the differences in culture and economies. Once again, my only complaint is with those foreign visitors who have had the system explained to them and still screw over their servers by undertipping anyway. I wish more visitors were as concientious as SerialFreak and made an effort to learn how the system works here before they come.
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:39 AM   #33
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Another peculiarly Dutch thing that made me shudder with every busload we got through: drinking orange juice with their beer. :eek:


I mean... what the fuck is with that?
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:43 AM   #34
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Curt: So your answer is to punish the exploited workers for... what? For not having the economic power (outside of those two states where there was a pretty nasty "revolution" and where the entire economy is based on the food/beverage service industry) to rise up against the multi-billion dollar corporations that are exploiting them?


That's like blaming the Jews for "letting" Hitler boss them around like that. They should have just stood firm and said, "We're not gonna let you treat us that way, dude."
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:45 AM   #35
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Don't look at me; I don't drink beer and orange juice isn't my favourite.

But I looooove that mayonnaise though 8-) (it's ketchup that I don't understand. Some people drown their fries in it! :shock: )
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garyos
"You know what they but on french fries in Holland instead of ketchup? Mayonnaise. I've seen 'em do it man, they fucking drown 'em in that shit."
Fuck ketchup, I love mayonnaise on my fries and potato chips ('crisps' to you Brits ).

And I agree with Curt, the American system is embarrassingly retarded. I've read of so many cases in the past where restaurants screw their staff over by withholding substantial portions of tips due the staff. And I also agree with BJ in that it's only respectful to research on local customs of countries you plan on visiting. I did that when I had studied in England years ago (of course, I hadn't expected my trousers to groan and threaten to fall down from the sheer weight of all those heavy British coins).
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:50 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mycroft
What's tipping ?
A city in China.

[audience laughs, goes wild, throws money at Trep]
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Old 01-31-2004, 10:04 AM   #38
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Avast ye freshwater swabs !

What vile tastes be ye havin'

But seriously, mayonnaise ? I mean, whoa. You guys are pretty sick.
I am a ketchup guy. It reminds me of blood.

I, for one, am glad to live in a country where I am not obliged to tip. I have actually replied to a pizza delivery guy by saying..."You want a tip. Get a real job."

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Old 01-31-2004, 10:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BacardiJim
Another peculiarly Dutch thing that made me shudder with every busload we got through: drinking orange juice with their beer. :eek:
I can assure you, that is NOT a typical Dutch thing. I think you met our national equivalent of the "village fools".

Mayonnaise rocks my world, though.
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Old 01-31-2004, 10:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BacardiJim
Curt: So your answer is to punish the exploited workers for... what? For not having the economic power (outside of those two states where there was a pretty nasty "revolution" and where the entire economy is based on the food/beverage service industry) to rise up against the multi-billion dollar corporations that are exploiting them?


That's like blaming the Jews for "letting" Hitler boss them around like that. They should have just stood firm and said, "We're not gonna let you treat us that way, dude."
I think that analogy is completely out of all proportions.

Anyway, I think he was clearly saying that they should be given minimum wage. It doesn't need a "revolution" among the workers, it needs recognition of an inequality from the government and some responsible legislation. Obviously prices at all resturants would have to go up, but if it's introduced across the entire country simultaneously then the sector won't be harmed. I also fail to see why farm employees are not paid minimum wage?
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