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Old 02-26-2004, 02:35 AM   #21
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This is why I'm not sure I like Michael Moore. I agree totally with the "grand picture" he paints of an America that's based on fear, but I've seen how easy it is to pick his stuff apart under scrutiny. Is he the lefties' ally, or a liability?
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Old 02-26-2004, 02:39 AM   #22
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(Don't worry, dw, I didn't mind a bit. I just wanted to clarify my position.)
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Old 02-26-2004, 02:40 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Marek
I agree totally with the "grand picture" he paints of an America that's based on fear, but I've seen how easy it is to pick his stuff apart under scrutiny.
How do you mean "based on fear"?
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Old 02-26-2004, 03:38 AM   #24
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Well, wasn't it obvious? That was what Bowling for Columbine was almost entirely about. It points to the fear thing as the driving force behind the whole "right to bear arms" movement.

But I'm actually referring mainly to the montage of news reports, which featured things like killer bees, terrorists and angry black males on the loose. I think that's a very accurate portrayal of American society.
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Old 02-26-2004, 05:09 AM   #25
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Well, wasn't it obvious? That was what Bowling for Columbine was almost entirely about.
I'm just not buying what Moore is selling because it doesn't stand to reason.


Quote:
It points to the fear thing as the driving force behind the whole "right to bear arms" movement.
But fear isn't the driving force; it's most reasonable and natural right to self-defense. Every moment on this planet, including this one of course, thousands of real people are really being cruelly raped, robbed, tortured, murdered, slaughtered, or somehow victimized grotesquely. But not those who are carrying guns. It's not fear that motivates people to own and carry guns. It's the same sense that motivates them to to well in school, find a good job, and save money. It's the realization and preservation of innocent human life. From an article below:

"How often do Americans use guns each year for defensive purposes, some of whom--but for their guns--might have been killed? Criminologist Gary Kleck estimates that 2.5 million Americans use guns for defensive purposes each year, and approximately 400,000 of them believe someone would have been dead had they not resorted to their defensive use of firearms. A government study put the figure at 1.5 million."

Fear, however, *is* the driving force behind the *anti-gun* movement. People have an irrational fear of guns so they elect politicians who promise to control, ban, and destroy guns. It's tyranny by democracy, and something the "rule of law" aspect of a constitutional form of government is supposed to guard against. Voters sell out our own rights, and yet we only buy LESS safety. It's the natural order of things. Wherever people aren't vigilant in learning, a government will usurp our rights.

As your tag-line says "Truth is like a diamond cut with many facets, each of which can be cut, polished and set to advantage." But keep in mind that anti-gun people can't even afford such a luxury. The facts in these articles, though, are interesting enough to read (please note the titles are sarcastic!):

More gun control, please
More gun control, please: Part II

And here are articles about gun laws in other countries some find interesting.



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But I'm actually referring mainly to the montage of news reports, which featured things like killer bees, terrorists and angry black males on the loose. I think that's a very accurate portrayal of American society.
Hmm, well I'm not sure sure about how stories about killer can portray anything about any society. Such news shows only sensationalize absurd stories to sell commercials.

But the part about fearing angry blacks males smells like Moore B.S. Here's another short article by Larry to debunk his premise that "America's alleged excessive gun ownership results from an inordinate, unfair and implicitly racist fear of blacks." I think you should read it, but here's a key paragraph:

"Twenty-five percent of young black men possess criminal records, according to government studies, either in jail, on parole or on probation. For the most part, murder victims are killed by a member of their same race. But, although blacks comprise only 12 percent of the population, economist and columnist Walter Williams writes, 'According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, blacks commit 54 percent of murders, 42 percent of forcible rapes, 59 percent of robberies and 38 percent of aggravated assaults. ... In the case of interracial violent crime, blacks are 50 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than whites against blacks.'"

Finally, I'd like to say that I don't have a gun, but that's not something I'd like to advertise.
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Old 02-26-2004, 05:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Todd
(Don't worry, dw, I didn't mind a bit. I just wanted to clarify my position.)
Yeah, I know you have the patience and control of someone who is very patient and controlled. Unlike I.

And that's exactly the reason I would never want to have a gun.
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Old 02-26-2004, 05:48 AM   #27
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Yeah, I know you have the patience and control of someone who is very patient and controlled. Unlike I.

And that's exactly the reason I would never want to have a gun.
Hehe, well nobody is forcing you... are they? I mean Finland does have one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world

And is that you!? Awesome beard!
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Old 02-26-2004, 06:01 AM   #28
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Hehe, well nobody is forcing you... are they? I mean Finland does have one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world
Kinda. I have to do my military service. But in favour of my own future and the lives of others, I think I'll choose the "no firearms" thingy or alternatively take civil service. (I'm slightly kidding, of course. I'm not a violent person.)

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Thanks! It's strange how it grew like that, me being 18 and all...
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Old 02-26-2004, 06:10 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Todd
How do you mean "based on fear"?
"You ride them everyday, but in an instant an escalator can mangle you or a loved one. 7 on Your Side reveals why you may be riding a stairway to danger."

Whatever Moore may have exaggerated, the media and the government in America really is based on keeping people afraid. And since 9/11 it's just gotten worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
Every moment on this planet, including this one of course, thousands of real people are really being cruelly raped, robbed, tortured, murdered, slaughtered, or somehow victimized grotesquely. But not those who are carrying guns.
If people with guns aren't victims of crimes then America should be one of the safest places on the planet. The fact is, though, that people with guns are in just as much danger as anybody else. More people with guns end up shooting themselves rather than somebody trying to attack them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
"Twenty-five percent of young black men possess criminal records, according to government studies, either in jail, on parole or on probation. For the most part, murder victims are killed by a member of their same race. But, although blacks comprise only 12 percent of the population, economist and columnist Walter Williams writes, 'According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, blacks commit 54 percent of murders, 42 percent of forcible rapes, 59 percent of robberies and 38 percent of aggravated assaults. ... In the case of interracial violent crime, blacks are 50 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than whites against blacks.'"
So what's that supposed to prove? Are you saying this somehow justifies racisim? Yes, blacks commit more crimes than whites. Blacks are also on average a good deal poorer than whites. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with money. If you saw a black guy in a nice business suit it's unlikely you'd be afraid of him. If you saw a white guy dressed like a gangster you'd probably be just as cautious around him as if he were black.

The reason we have such a problem with crime is because of this prevelant Hobbesian paranoia that tells us everybody is out to get us and life is "nasty, brutish, and short." In reality, there's a lot less to be scared of out there than most people think. It's not like there's a horde of black barbarians waiting in the ghetto to shoot the first white guy they happen across.

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Old 02-26-2004, 06:12 AM   #30
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Todd, I'd love to hear you explain to the families of victims of school shootings (such as Littleton) how it was people that shot their kids, and not guns.

I can imagine you'd say one of these two things:

1) Violent computer games turned those two guys into mindless killers.

2) If everyone in that school had been armed it would've been okay cause they'd have just shot the two instantly.

Well, I'm not even going to bother to adress the completely laughable first option... but as for the second one: If you truly believe that a society with everyone armed to the teeth would create a safe situation I'm sorry to say that I have to question your sanity. Considering how trigger happy Americans appear to be as it is, it would be a massacre waiting to happen, which it mostly already is, but hey, more of that then...

Ever see Battle Royale?

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Old 02-26-2004, 06:52 AM   #31
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I don't really want to plunge myself deep into a guns/no guns debate, cause I fear such a discussion could take forever, so I'll try to keep this as brief as I can

Quote:
I'm just not buying what Moore is selling because it doesn't stand to reason.
This is exactly what I meant with "is Moore a liability or an ally". His methods might be shoddy but his overall message might not be. I don't know really who else is campaigning that kind of message though, so I don't have any links for you with well-researched counter arguments. I do however strongly feel that something is rotten at the core of America though (no offense intended), and I support anyone who tries to find out what it is.

I first went to America three years ago. It was to LA, for the E3. Every morning I went out of the hotel, and every morning when I saw the news on the TV in the hotel lobby I was thinking "what's happened?! what's wrong? are we all going to die?". Of course it was just some bank robbery blown all out of proportion. But it was presented in a way that in Europe would probably mean... a disaster, or a political assasination, or some other huge news story. You say something like "hey, that's just the sensationalist media". Well, YES. And that sensationalist crap pervades through America every day. Everyone's affected. You can say "yeah, but it's not like I'm associated with that". But erm... you know, it's there, and it's screaming "terrorism!" and "violence!" and "disaster!" and that makes people scared, even subconciously.

Another experience I had was a building accross my hotel being raided by police, with helicopters and all that crap. Also, a guy on the street near the LACC told us it was "a great day to kill some n------". A friend of mine who went to States had a gun pointed at his head, and if it wasn't for his gun-bearing travel companion he might have been dead by now. So, on the other hand, some places in the US are definitely worthy of being scared of. But I think guns are the cause of this problem, and not the solution. I mean all the street violence in sort of the urban areas that you hear about is usually related to some guy being disproportionately poor, but being able to acquire a gun fairly easily. This smelly guy thinks: "hey, my life sucks, but guns==power, so i'll buy one of those". That's the simplified version of course, but it's true I think. Take away the guns, give people some quality of life, and you remove 95% of the problem.

The current US government has an agenda based on fear. It's their basic propaganda strategy, really. While I was taking a shit in one of those fancy automated toilets at SFO, a voice spoke through the intercom, and it went along the lines of this: "This is a message from Homeland Security. Terrorist threat level has been raised to ORANGE. Report any suspect behavior to the authorities immediately." After that, I was more than happy to go on that plane. That terrorist threat level color code is not made for security, it's made for repression. Assuming their was a genuine terrorist threat, why scare the hell out of everyone in that airport? It felt like Big Brother himself speaking to me. You're not going to catch any terrorists with that intercom message, and if there's a bomber walking around I'd like to have him dealt with swiftly and quietly by the CIA, thank you. That's what they're for, isn't it?

Oh, and finally, I think what Moore meant with the whole black guy thing, is that people usually focus on the crime in the streets, and not crimes committed at higher levels (such as CEOs accepting bribes, or whatever), which he regards as more severe. Moore's reasoning is probably that the crimes at the top encourage the crimes at the bottom. It makes more sense if you look at it symbolically, especially the bit where he says a black guy never hurt him, but white guys have (anything from a car salesmen to a corporate CEO). I mean, it would be hard to take that literally. :eek:

I hope that with these anecdotes -- which turned out to be much longer than I wanted -- I've sort of illustrated what I think. Next time I shouldn't write one of these posts after a strong coffee, heh.
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Old 02-26-2004, 07:52 AM   #32
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Todd, I'd love to hear you explain to the families of victims of school shootings how it was people that shot their kids, and not guns.
Um, because it was people that shot their kids. It's not as if a gun can fire itself. The guns didn't march into the school on their own and start shooting people.

Taking away all the guns just seems to be going overboard to me. There are millions of people with guns out there who have never hurt anybody, but because a few crazy guys with guns get a lot of attention everybody thinks we need more gun control. Taking away the guns doesn't solve the problem. It wasn't because of the guns that those kids decided to shoot their classmates. Crime has been around a lot longer than guns. People who want to kill will find a way whether guns are legal or not. They'll probably find a way to get their hands on a gun whether guns are legal or not. It really only punishes people who own and use guns legally. Gun control might solve the immediate cause of violent crimes, but it ignores the real problems. And that's more dangerous than guns themselves.

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Old 02-26-2004, 08:06 AM   #33
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Sorry, mag but I don't buy that. Sure the NRA's eternal argument "people kill people" is true theoretically. It was those two kids that pulled the trigger. But the point is, they could scarcely have done it if there was no trigger to pull. The fact that some people can own a gun responsibly is no excuse to allow the rest the same opportunity.
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Old 02-26-2004, 10:04 AM   #34
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What this thread needs is a healthy helping of the Gubernatorial Arnold Soundboard.
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Old 02-26-2004, 10:42 AM   #35
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What this thread needs is a healthy helping of the Gubernatorial Arnold Soundboard.
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Old 02-26-2004, 01:59 PM   #36
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But the point is, they could scarcely have done it if there was no trigger to pull. The fact that some people can own a gun responsibly is no excuse to allow the rest the same opportunity.
Right. Because prohibition did such a great job of ending drinking problems in America too.

Yes, the gun may have been the most immediate cause of those deaths. But the gun isn't what caused those kids to want to kill in the first place. Even assuming an ideal world where you could have total control over who has a gun, you still wouldn't be solving the problem. Those people still would have found a way to kill because that's what they wanted to do. You don't kill somebody just because there's a means of doing so available. You kill somebody because you want them dead. And there are thousands of objects that can be lethal in the hands of somebody who wants to kill. If you want to take away the weapons rather than dealing with the actual cause, we'll all be living out our lives in a Howard Hughes-like state of fear and paranoia.

Whether or not people have guns is irrelevant. If you really want to solve the problem you should be looking at what made these people want to kill in the first place. Why do we have the only society on the planet where people feel so helpless that they have a need to take a gun into work and blow away a few of their colleagues? Why is the number one cause of death in America stress related heart disease? Why do people in our culture consider murder to be a viable solution to their problems? Those are the questions we should really be asking. Once we've answered those, whether or not we have guns won't really matter.

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Old 02-26-2004, 02:05 PM   #37
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I would like to raise the point that killing with a gun is probably a lot easier than killing any other way. With a gun you just pull a trigger. Bang. Dead. Very clean (in a morbid sense). Now imagine killing someone with a knife. You have to physically grab hold of someone and repeatedly stab him in the chest. That, in my opinion, turns around the whole "they would have found another way anyway" theory. And if it isn't a knife, how creative do you think people will get? Use broken glass? Get a baseball bat? Set traps? You don't do that sort of shit in a reflex, is all I'm saying.

Psychologically speaking, shooting a gun has a lot, LOT lower threshold. And not just for the maniacs out there. If you have a gun for protection and you're suddenly in a very threatening situation, your survival instincts might take hold of you completely and there's no telling what you'll do.

I don't have any stats on this, but I bet deterministic murderers like that sniper last year are responsible only for a very small percentage of the actual incidents. Aren't most gun fights more like ... uhh some gang and some other gang and everyone is like "shit shit shit", people draw guns and some of them die? Or, like, a robbery gone bad? Or some neighbour dispute and one of them draws a gun? Whatever. I'm just pulling up some random scenarios from Cops. But that's still probably the sort of thing we're talking about. Not the maniac laughter type of killing where any means of killing would be pursued?

Anyway, why not ban guns AND try to fix whatever motivates people to kill? Kill one bird with two stones, so to speak.

Beh, it's late now. I should be playing with that sound board.
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Old 02-26-2004, 02:27 PM   #38
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Todd I really advise you to watch bowling for columbine, download it if you don't want to pay for it, cause michael moore does make some valid points about the american society of today.

And mag, the usa schools teaches you from the very first day in kindergarten: be number one, else you'll end up in the gutter and will die alone in a abandoned building and found 10 weeks later cause the smell is starting to reach the neighbours.
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Old 02-26-2004, 04:07 PM   #39
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I wasn't taught that Lets not use this to just go flying off onto any anti-american tangent you think you can relate in as to get off one more pot shot. However,

Quote:
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everything Marek said in post #31
I agree more or less entirely.
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Old 02-26-2004, 04:41 PM   #40
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What this thread needs is a healthy helping of the Gubernatorial Arnold Soundboard.
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