[Ninja Dodo]

Anyone else see this?

Hacking Democracy

I find it amusing that over here in Holland there's this huge scandal about the apparently lacking security of voting machines and there is talk of going back to the old red pencil on paper in the upcoming elections... while in the 'the greatest democracy on earth' apathy reigns and two if not more presidential elections have gone by where nobody actually even knows how the votes have been counted.

What kind of democracy has a secret vote counting process?

[Huz]

I haven't watched the movie, but the idea that votes should be counted entirely by machines is terrifying on its own. The fact that Diebold (the manufacturer of the machines) has been repeatedly in the news for having questionable elements within it, including a (ex-?) CEO who is a staunch Republican[1], is far worse...

[1] On closer inspection, this sentence implies that all staunch Republicans are questionable. Well...

[Relek]

There will always be corruption, and as long as it exists we will never have a true democracy (thank god for that )

[Ninja Dodo]

1) The machines and software that count the votes are designed by a private corporation whose CEO has been quoted as promising to "deliver the election to the President [George W Bush]".

That's dubious at best... though I would go so far as to say unacceptable.

2) The code that does the counting is a company secret and may not be reviewed by any independent body. There's no paper trail, no receipt to confirm your vote (which could be used in a recount). Basically you just have to trust Diebold.

This is the part where it stops being a democracy.

... and that's not even getting into the ludicrous process of registering to vote - in Holland every citizen is automatically registered to vote, as well they should be. People who don't have time for this kind of crap because they're too busy making ends meet don't get left out.*

Or how about the shortages of voting booths where they are needed most? Rich neighbourhoods with 300 odd voters would get 3 voting machines, while another neighbourhood with 3000 (!) voters would get 2, with people standing in lines for up to 7 hours. Some people can't afford to take the day off to vote, but oh wait... they don't vote Republican. Maybe that explains it.

Points for style: negative campaigning

*Not that I wish to imply that Holland is somehow the perfect democracy. Ours is flawed as any, but at least it still is a democracy.

[Giligan]

I may be ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist, but I honestly don't believe there's any such thing as a honest government election system. I truly believe they're all fixed.

If you believe the newspapers:

Democracy, the "rule by the many" has not only failed in Iraq, which neither asked for it nor needed it, but also in America. 109 years, ago, the Maine blew up in Havana harbour. The US wanted war then. Now, the President simply says "I want war; and there's not a bloody thing you can do about it!". But we, the people, are supposed to decide when we go to war or not! Unfortunately, the people in the 60-70s demostrated what happens when the people force the government out of war; it's a disaster. It shouldn't come to that point. They had no business in Vietnam, and they have even less in Iraq, since it's an incredibly poorly veiled attempt to control oil reserves under the guise of "peacekeeping".

But no gov't is what it was. The Britsh are almost as hated as America; Mr. Blair has finished that, which was started hundreds of years ago. The traditional British "world control" mentality has started more than a few smoldering fires over the centuries. They want to break away from the Americans, but they don't realize that if the US goes down, they go down too.
Other, smaller countries, really don't get on anyone's radar, since they stay to themselves.

However, personal interaction has left me with the belief that we're all the same. The media hype fills people with pride over their country, perhaps, and people hate or love each other on the basis of borders and religions. It's silly though, we're all the same species.

[Relek]

Originally Posted by Giligan

I may be ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist, but I honestly don't believe there's any such thing as a honest government election system. I truly believe they're all fixed.

If you believe the newspapers:

Democracy, the "rule by the many" has not only failed in Iraq, which neither asked for it nor needed it, but also in America. 109 years, ago, the Maine blew up in Havana harbour. The US wanted war then. Now, the President simply says "I want war; and there's not a bloody thing you can do about it!". But we, the people, are supposed to decide when we go to war or not! Unfortunately, the people in the 60-70s demostrated what happens when the people force the government out of war; it's a disaster. It shouldn't come to that point. They had no business in Vietnam, and they have even less in Iraq, since it's an incredibly poorly veiled attempt to control oil reserves under the guise of "peacekeeping".

But no gov't is what it was. The Britsh are almost as hated as America; Mr. Blair has finished that, which was started hundreds of years ago. The traditional British "world control" mentality has started more than a few smoldering fires over the centuries. They want to break away from the Americans, but they don't realize that if the US goes down, they go down too.
Other, smaller countries, really don't get on anyone's radar, since they stay to themselves.

However, personal interaction has left me with the belief that we're all the same. The media hype fills people with pride over their country, perhaps, and people hate or love each other on the basis of borders and religions. It's silly though, we're all the same species.

First of all, A lot of Americans wanted Bush to go to war. Second of all, the war in Vietnam was neccessary, not many people realise this but Vietname was a vital factor for who would win the cold war, neither the Americans nor the Soviets could fight using direct methods due to nuclear determent. At the time, the Americans were watching many 3rd world countries succumb to joining the communist revolution, and predicted that many more would fall to the communism, so when Vietnam came under crisis America felt that they had to interfere to win the cold war.

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by Relek

First of all, A lot of Americans wanted Bush to go to war.

The best democracy happens when you have a fully informed electorate. The reason so many Americans wanted Bush to go to war in Iraq was due to the dismal and horrible behavior by our media that basically went along with what the White House said and did not challange their assertions. When the media came out of their patriotic stupor after 9/11, they started doing their job better (although it can still improve) and as a result (along with the casulties obviously), the war became very unpopular along with Bush.

This is an interesting site for criticism of the media:

http://www.fair.org/index.php

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

The best democracy happens when you have a fully informed electorate. The reason so many Americans wanted Bush to go to war in Iraq was due to the dismal and horrible behavior by our media that basically went along with what the White House said and did not challange their assertions. When the media came out of their patriotic stupor after 9/11, they started doing their job better (although it can still improve) and as a result (along with the casulties obviously), the war became very unpopular along with Bush.

This is an interesting site for criticism of the media:

http://www.fair.org/index.php

Bush is unpopular for far more reasons than just the war. Frankly, I'm not sure that he ever actually does anything. His second term appears to have been devoted to getting his ranch ready for his twilight years.

[Ninja Dodo]

Well he's been doing plenty eroding of civil rights not to mention legalizing torture and labeling everyone who disagrees with him unpatriotic or a terrorist. I imagine that gets annoying.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

The best democracy happens when you have a fully informed electorate. The reason so many Americans wanted Bush to go to war in Iraq was due to the dismal and horrible behavior by our media that basically went along with what the White House said and did not challange their assertions. When the media came out of their patriotic stupor after 9/11, they started doing their job better (although it can still improve) and as a result (along with the casulties obviously), the war became very unpopular along with Bush.

Don't you think that the tide had already reverted (meaning US media started being critical of Bush) by the late 2004? Yet it didn't seem to stop him from being re-elected.

(This is absolutely not an American-specific complaint, though. The same narrow-mindedness lead to the pathetic government currently in charge in Poland, for example. Just saying that electorate gets easily manipulated by smooth slogans even if they have access to full information, theoretically.)

[Relek]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

The best democracy happens when you have a fully informed electorate. The reason so many Americans wanted Bush to go to war in Iraq was due to the dismal and horrible behavior by our media that basically went along with what the White House said and did not challange their assertions. When the media came out of their patriotic stupor after 9/11, they started doing their job better (although it can still improve) and as a result (along with the casulties obviously), the war became very unpopular along with Bush.

This is an interesting site for criticism of the media:

http://www.fair.org/index.php

This is very true, but I'm sure that there were many well educated individuals who still wanted Iraq to be invaded despite their immunity to propaganda. I myself supported the war, because no matter what the intentions were, we have liberated a country much in the same way that we liberated Germany from the Nazis. One day the people of Iraq will reap the benefits of a democracy, the same benefits that we often take for granted, and like it or not, these benefits are always paid for in blood.

[Giligan]

Originally Posted by Relek

First of all, A lot of Americans wanted Bush to go to war. Second of all, the war in Vietnam was neccessary, not many people realise this but Vietname was a vital factor for who would win the cold war, neither the Americans nor the Soviets could fight using direct methods due to nuclear determent. At the time, the Americans were watching many 3rd world countries succumb to joining the communist revolution, and predicted that many more would fall to the communism, so when Vietnam came under crisis America felt that they had to interfere to win the cold war.

As Mel said, the threat of WMD scared many people, and made them want to go to war. But it was, all along of course, a lie.

As for Vietnam, excuse my vulgar terms, but the French got their butts kicked in '54. They then made an agreement, to divide Vietnam into North and South. Fighting still went on, but the situation didn't escalate to all-out war until the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Don't you think that the tide had already reverted (meaning US media started being critical of Bush) by the late 2004? Yet it didn't seem to stop him from being re-elected.

It may not have come soon enough.

(This is absolutely not an American-specific complaint, though. The same narrow-mindedness lead to the pathetic government currently in charge in Poland, for example. Just saying that electorate gets easily manipulated by smooth slogans even if they have access to full information, theoretically.)

Politics is politics no matter where you live...

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Relek

One day the people of Iraq will reap the benefits of a democracy, the same benefits that we often take for granted, and like it or not, these benefits are always paid for in blood.

Always? That's an oversimplification at best. In most of Eastern Europe, Communism collapsed without bloodshed in 1989, Romania being the only real exception I can think of (and even there, no external military forces were involved).

[Huz]

Originally Posted by Relek

This is very true, but I'm sure that there were many well educated individuals who still wanted Iraq to be invaded despite their immunity to propaganda.

I find the idea of "immunity to propaganda" laughable.

we have liberated a country much in the same way that we liberated Germany from the Nazis. One day the people of Iraq will reap the benefits of a democracy, the same benefits that we often take for granted, and like it or not, these benefits are always paid for in blood.

Proves my point really.