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Old 10-24-2006, 04:38 PM   #1
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Default That's it, we've gone and screwed it up! (a Global Warming thread)

According to the WWF (no, Macho Man Randy Savage has nothing to do with this), we'll need 2 planets to meet the energy and resource consumption needs of our species by the year 2050. Here, read for yourselves: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6077798.stm

Maybe Al Gore is right, maybe we've really gone and fucked it up for our children (or their children in the event that you already have children). It sounds to me like this is a pretty real threat and although you might be leaning back with a smile on you face, catching a few rays in your thong while you sip on your iced tea in Fucking Iceland in the middle of January, I can assure you, your grandchildren will have to wear that SPF 2000 sunblock from Robocop just to not explode into flames when they step out the front door.

Now I know what we can do to prevent this whole disaster, but it doesn't seem very realistic that such an initiative on a global scale can really take place. I've sort of come to accept the fact that we as a species have this coming to us (hopefully I'll be long dead by the time the shit really hits the fan) and that this is just the planet's way of taking a shower and cleaning away all the filth (read: humans).

I mean really, we're only a blip on the evolutionary radar of mother earth. I'm sure she won't miss us.

So, are we messing things up? If not, are you crazy? If so, can we fix it? And if not to the if so, it this the natural order of things? Discuss.

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Old 10-24-2006, 05:21 PM   #2
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I was actually just thinking today "what ever happened to that global warming thing?" Over here, in Florida, it's been getting colder a lot sooner than usual. Also, there weren't any major hurricanes to speak of (or maybe I haven't been watching the news enough), which contradicts the predictions I kept hearing last year.

I'm sure it isn't gone but I just thought it odd.
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:27 PM   #3
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That kind of reminds me back in,I think it was 1993, when some scientists got Ted Dansen to announce that all wild animals in the world would be extinct by the year 2000.
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:56 PM   #4
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Green hysteria is amusing.

A blip? We're a fs**ing barrel of white out. And we're not going anywhere. It took us tens of millions of years to stop being a machine mindlessly reacting all the time, to stop going with the flow whether or not that got us anywhere, we've been hanging on by any trick we could pull for a long time, and we're not about to let that all fade into nothing just because someone's guilty conscience wishes it so, not without one hell of a fight.

We're not even going to let our surviving prototypes disappear, just being very similar to us grants a lot of safety.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:53 PM   #5
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See it this way: Mankind wasn't made to last forever. That's how I see it anyway. And surely, evolution came up with better ideas than to create humans.

This might sound misanthropic, but any kind of species dominating an entire system which once worked on the principle of balance, um, I think you know where I'm getting with this.

It's not so much about the question wether your children, or grand grandchildren, or grand grand grandchildren are going to face the real consequences, it's that one generation *is* going to do that. That's not hyperbole. When you're reading about stuff that the plans to build low fuel cars have been existing FOR MORE THAN 20 or 30 years, and that they could've been very well made for just as long, yet corporations are still churning out their big, fat family vans and monster cars and whatsnot, you're getting a good idea of what makes humanity tick.

I think that's okay, in the end. We're pretty much getting the most out of everything and enjoying ourselves.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:52 PM   #6
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Yes, we are (have) really f'ing things up for our children and future generations. Much of the damage is done and I agree that to stop or reverse the process may be too huge a job. The unsavoury truth is that as individuals we all tend to live within our own little worlds and predominently concentrate/care about only those things that directly impact on those little worlds. This is a much, much bigger problem than can be solved individually. The harsh reality is that it will take massively unpopular decisions by major governments imposing huge restrictions on mass populations to even start to reverse the process (current actions only seem aimed at slowing the global warming process down).

And those unpopular decisions will not be made for 2 reasons:

1. In a so called democratic society, unpopular decisions (even if they are ultimately for our benefit but at a personal cost to us as individuals), tend to get governments kicked out of office, thus derailing any progress made. Unless all parties agree on the harsh decisions no progress can be made - and even then, when the harsh decisions/laws start impacting on individuals, and those individuals come together up in arms as the new legislations hits those with the least the hardest, revolution is a threat. Revolutions may start out with the right intentions but after a while the power-hungry individuals find their ways to the top of it and we end up back where we started, or worse.

2. So called democracy as we know it in the west (and progressively more so in other areas of the world) is captalistic and therefore determined and controlled by big business. Big business willl be hit hard by the changes that are required to halt and reverse global warming and the people who are in charge of many of those businesses only care about the profits they can make today and in the near future and their personal fortunes. They care far more about what their business opponents are doing next year that may cut into their profits than they do about the World in 100 or 1000 years.

It will take an extremely undemocratic dictatorial world organization to impose massive restrictions/changes on all countries in the world. Upholding those restrictions and dealing with problem areas that arise from it would be far too massive to contemplate. Besides, no such world organization exists to my mind that either has the power or the will to do something about it.

We also have 2 huge nations, China and India, with just under 1/3 of the worlds populations, developing at a scary pace mainly on the back of fossil fuels.

Basically, we're f'd. And that is without even factoring in methane release into the atmosphere from the farts of 6.5 billion people on a daily basis.


BUT........ I'm not defeatest so let's turn this thread into something positive. Let's post here some of the things we do to help fight global warming, or feel we could/should, as individuals that may give others ideas.

1. Put only enough water in the kettle for the cup. Boiling more and never using it wastes a lot of energy.

2. Don't leave electrical items on standby, it's a waste.

3. Turn off all lights that aren't being used.

4. Use the car as little as possible (Megs and I use the car 2-3 times a month and bicycles/public transport for the rest) and, if you have one, trade that gas-guzzler for an uglier but more environmentally friendly car.

5. Turn the computer off when you're not using it (I'm sometimes guilty of this )

6. Annoy people at work when you see them leaving things on that needn't be.

7. Cook things in larger amounts that can be eaten 2 days running (we cook a lot in the wok - things heat up quick and the wok retains a lot of heat as iron holds the heat better than steel, plus the iron pot will have a longer lifespan).

8. Take quicker showers and don't have them too hot, even if it does feel nicer on those cold mornings (one of the reasons people tend to stay under them longer, along with singing apparently). Warm water will suffice and can save a LOT of energy.

9. If you have one, pack that dishwasher as full as you can get it before switching on. Same with washing. Alternatively do it by hand you lazy sod (I'm a lazy sod btw).

10. In our generally overclean societies we tend to wash our clothes more regularly than is actually necessary due to the stigma of being seen wearing the same clothes as the day before. If you're showering/washing regularly this should not be necessary and a quick sniff of the garments will tell you where you stand on this (some people gain a stale smell quicker than others). If you don't want the stigma, stick them on an aired shelf for a day or two - nobody will ever know unless you have a bit of the other days dinner stuck to them.

11. Use roll on deoderants rather than spray on, and seek out the ones with a lower ph - not only are they better for your skin, they're also better for the environment.

These are just a few of the things we can do that will only make a minute difference individually but as a world population can have a big impact.

Ultimately, live simpler. The Indians and Chinese lived simple for generations and their impact on global warming was miniscule. Now their lives are becoming more "westernized" and "complicated". Simple living is the answer but means giving up a lot we take for granted.

Alternatively, do nothing, stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Just one warning - it won't!
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Old 10-25-2006, 02:57 AM   #7
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A blip? We're a fs**ing barrel of white out. And we're not going anywhere. It took us tens of millions of years to stop being a machine mindlessly reacting all the time, to stop going with the flow whether or not that got us anywhere, we've been hanging on by any trick we could pull for a long time, and we're not about to let that all fade into nothing just because someone's guilty conscience wishes it so, not without one hell of a fight.
You sound pretty confident there, like it's impossible for an entire civilization to be wiped out over night. Sure, we've spent millions of years evolving into a species that is able to go against the grain of mindlessly reacting to our environment, but on the other hand, for those hundreds of millions of years, we weren't doing much damage on such a global scale. In the past couple hundred of years, we've started seeing the results of our greed and in the past 20 or 30 years we've done irreparable damage to our planet.

Sure we can fight the good fight against something that we've been reminded all too many times in recent years is far more powerful than we are, or, as Curt has pointed out, we can continue trying to make money and live in a culture of consumption which is a fairly recent trend in the grand scheme of the planet and doesn't appear to be going away any time soon.

I think it's funny how there are people who can still look at the facts and scoff at the situation as being not that big a deal. Like the other half of the world is just making this stuff to scare people into what: consuming less? Who's to benefit financially from that? No one. Maybe there actually are people who have done the math and don't expect a big paycheck in return. These people are telling us that there are far fewer polar bears today than 30 years ago. They're saying that the ice caps are melting, glaciers are receding and that things are only going to get worse.

I think the facts are indisputable and that if there are too many people sitting around today saying "oh, it's not so bad" our species won't have much time left to live. I'm not saying we'll be gone in 50 years, or even 500. But we ain't going to be here for the hundreds of millions of years that previous inhabitants of this planets were.

I agree with the suggestions above about living a more simple life. It's hard to look at ideas like "boil less water when making coffee" as having any sort of significant impact on climate change, but then if 6 billion people all cut down on some of the excesses in life, then maybe it could happen. I just don't don't feel that's a very likely situation.

Oh shit, that was way too long, no one's going to read it. Oh well, this thread was doomed from the start. Not a popular topic on these forums.

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Old 10-25-2006, 03:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Spiwak View Post
I was actually just thinking today "what ever happened to that global warming thing?" Over here, in Florida, it's been getting colder a lot sooner than usual. Also, there weren't any major hurricanes to speak of (or maybe I haven't been watching the news enough), which contradicts the predictions I kept hearing last year.

I'm sure it isn't gone but I just thought it odd.


Global Warming does not mean "Warmer Weather". Global Warming causes screwed temperatures and weather extremes, in both directions. So while some places will be getting hotter weather, other places are going to have extremely cold winters.

In the long term, it means that hotter places are going to become hotter (expansion of deserts too, for example), while moderately warm places are going to experience harsher winters, and hotter summers. And two extremes are not good, not good at all.

The opinion that "Global Warming" means "Warmer Weather" is a terrible misconception, that sadly is very common.

(correct me if I mixed something up. It's been some time since my last Geography lesson)



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Old 10-25-2006, 03:31 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by samIamsad View Post
See it this way: Mankind wasn't made to last forever. That's how I see it anyway. And surely, evolution came up with better ideas than to create humans.

This might sound misanthropic, but any kind of species dominating an entire system which once worked on the principle of balance, um, I think you know where I'm getting with this.

It's not so much about the question wether your children, or grand grandchildren, or grand grand grandchildren are going to face the real consequences, it's that one generation *is* going to do that. That's not hyperbole. When you're reading about stuff that the plans to build low fuel cars have been existing FOR MORE THAN 20 or 30 years, and that they could've been very well made for just as long, yet corporations are still churning out their big, fat family vans and monster cars and whatsnot, you're getting a good idea of what makes humanity tick.

I think that's okay, in the end. We're pretty much getting the most out of everything and enjoying ourselves.

Yeah, it's best we're wiped off this planet anyway since it appears we've lost that inbuilt gene of replication and survival. Any 'stupid' animal will go to any lengths to make sure its offsprings (species) survive. Only humans seem to be so superior to such primitive impulses that we don't really care for our continuity. Maybe on a higher level? ... It's just a shame that most of the innocent animals and plants who made this planet a beautiful place are sinking with us....

By the way, I'm amazed at an argument that comes up with condemning the big bad corporations and making them responsible for the mess. If it weren't for us consumers, these guys wouldn't sell as much as one SUV on this planet. It's all about supply and DEMAND. Not to say we should regress to Stone Age but let's just stop bloody boosting our egos with SUVs, electric everything, light and heating orgies and more of that energy-craving atmosphere-killing show-off shyte (see Curt's list above! Not only sensible but also darling money saving).
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Old 10-25-2006, 03:39 AM   #10
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The opinion that "Global Warming" means "Warmer Weather" is a terrible misconception, that sadly is very common.
Absolutely true! The "warmer weather" will make Italy in 30-50 years an African desert and London, for instance, will be down-under (melting of the pole caps).
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:21 AM   #11
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By the way, I'm amazed at an argument that comes up with condemning the big bad corporations and making them responsible for the mess. If it weren't for us consumers, these guys wouldn't sell as much as one SUV on this planet. It's all about supply and DEMAND.

Oops. My wording indeed made it sound that way, but I think everybody knows that this whole thing is based upon supply and demand. Yet, how this demand is created in the first place could be another issue worth discussing entirely... But really, we're all a part of everything.


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Originally Posted by Curt
We also have 2 huge nations, China and India, with just under 1/3 of the worlds populations, developing at a scary pace mainly on the back of fossil fuels.
It's a scary thought that basically everything and everyone is so dependent on fossil fuels. If they'd run out tomorrow, all hell would break loose in less than no time.
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:42 AM   #12
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It's a scary thought that basically everything and everyone is so dependent on fossil fuels. If they'd run out tomorrow, all hell would break loose in less than no time.
Agreed. It's quite unfortunate and a little pathetic that the global economy relies on a non-renewable natural resource.
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:48 AM   #13
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Demand comes from temptation. Temptation is a human fault that has got man into trouble for generations. Temptation also gets other animal species into trouble. Make it more difficult for those who dangle the tempting carrots in front of our noses and you reduce the temptation and thus the demand. But that ain't gonna happen in a capitalistic society because demand is wealth and wealth, well that's power. Kill advertising and we kill much of the demand - but what government is going to start by killing advertising? Just look how long it has taken warnings on tobacco packets to filter through and actually start having a positive effect on the masses - some would argue it still hasn't and only imposing on individuals "rights" by banning smoking in certain places will have a greater effect. That's the humble cigarette, Global Warming and the actions needed to stem it seriously would go far beyond denying such an individuals "right". The effects on corporations would be massive. It will take somebody with enormous balls and power to even start to change things.

Sam - all hell will break loose long before the fossil fuels run out. Much of the battling and jockeying going on right now in the Middle East is only the start. Control of such a vital resource is everything and I dread to think the lengths that some would go to to have that control. Only hugely succesful, cheap and environmentally friendly renewable resources will prevent something catastrophic imho. But by then the damage to our beautiful planet may well be irreversible.
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:55 AM   #14
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Agreed. It's quite unfortunate and a little pathetic that the global economy relies on a non-renewable natural resource.
I remember a day when my mom was scared shitless after she saw a show on TV about the whole Ozone hole story years ago. "I would never give birth to a child in a World like this anymore," she used to say. Yet, it seemed she quickly forgot about all of that and just lived on like usual.

Coincidentally my parents will be getting a central heating based on water heating and powered by elecricity very soon. Sure, this elecricity could very well be entirelly coming from power plants burning fossil fuels like hell, but you never know. In any case, the important thing is that they don't do this for environmental reasons, as far as I know. The old oil heating needs to be replaced, and since the prices for oil have exploded anyway during the last years...

The point I want to get across is that no one will change much of anything, until they are, or at least feel forced to do so. Hey, I'm certainly not counting myself out here! Absolutely. Not. I'm just like everybody else! The thing is, the whole issue is still something that can be seen on TV, late at night, sometimes in the news, talk shows - it's vague, it's far away, it doesn't have an impact on anyone, heck if I didn't watch TV, I wouldn't even know it existed at all. This may sound cruel to some, but to get things moving, environmental protection badly needs its very own 9/11 to ever take seriously off. The eye-opener that gets people thinking, making them realize that this isn't something vague shown on TV occasionally, but indeed something serious.

Only that, by that point, it might be very well too late. You never know.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:32 AM   #15
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By the way, I'm amazed at an argument that comes up with condemning the big bad corporations and making them responsible for the mess.
Ditto.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:35 AM   #16
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This may sound cruel to some, but to get things moving, environmental protection badly needs its very own 9/11 to ever take seriously off. The eye-opener that gets people thinking, making them realize that this isn't something vague shown on TV occasionally, but indeed something serious.
What about Hurricane Katrina? Last year there was an unprecedented number of natural disasters which have been linked by a number of scientists to climate change.

Even if the ground opened up and the fires of hell shot out and enveloped an entire country, we'd probably just keep driving our SUVs saying "thank god it didn't happen to us." Throughout our entire lives we've been hammered over the head that bigger is better, and more is cheaper. Everywhere you go there are ads telling us to buy useless shit and what do we do? We buy it? Because we don't know anything else anymore. There's no such thing as spiritual enlightenment in the west anymore. Instead we seek to improve the quality of our lives through consumption.

All this to say that mother nature's 9/11 probably wouldn't be enough to open our eyes. Not unless someone could make some money off of it.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:14 AM   #17
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By the way, I'm amazed at an argument that comes up with condemning the big bad corporations and making them responsible for the mess. If it weren't for us consumers, these guys wouldn't sell as much as one SUV on this planet. It's all about supply and DEMAND. Not to say we should regress to Stone Age but let's just stop bloody boosting our egos with SUVs, electric everything, light and heating orgies and more of that energy-craving atmosphere-killing show-off shyte (see Curt's list above! Not only sensible but also darling money saving).
People are lemmings, and they follow what is convenient for them. If there were no FUV's, people would buy cars just like everyone else. I was amazed at for example one car company who would give you very cheap gas only if you buy one of their big cars. Why? Because high gas prices were starting to become an important aspect of people's decision in buying cars, and big car corps benefit from selling FUV's more than cars.

Government also plays a role in it. When they started giving tax breaks for hybrid cars and allowing hybrid owners to drive in the carpool lane, the number of hybrid cars starting increasing (especially with the gas price increase). But now the government is removing the tax break, and in California, Arnold is revoking the law that allows hybrid owners to drive in the carpool lane.

On another note, it sickens me how everyday I open my mail box in my apartment complex, and see it full with junk paper advertisements for supermarket store deals, or credit card applications (how many credit cards can a human being possibly own). When I grab these paper advertisements to throw them in the recycling bin, I see the huge bin full to the very top with these advertisements, and I think of how many trees they cut and wasted, just to make a little more money.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:19 AM   #18
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What about Hurricane Katrina? Last year there was an unprecedented number of natural disasters which have been linked by a number of scientists to climate change.

Even if the ground opened up and the fires of hell shot out and enveloped an entire country, we'd probably just keep driving our SUVs saying "thank god it didn't happen to us." Throughout our entire lives we've been hammered over the head that bigger is better, and more is cheaper. Everywhere you go there are ads telling us to buy useless shit and what do we do? We buy it? Because we don't know anything else anymore. There's no such thing as spiritual enlightenment in the west anymore. Instead we seek to improve the quality of our lives through consumption.

All this to say that mother nature's 9/11 probably wouldn't be enough to open our eyes. Not unless someone could make some money off of it.
I'm sorry to have to dissagree with you Flyboy but the hype usually doesn't work out with the facts.

Fact #1: Most folks do not reallize what the largest producer of greenhouse gasses, pollution, ozone depleting chemicals, and carbon monoxide isn't human beings but the Earth herself. The actual ejection of material from man is less than 1% of the total that comes from volcanic and storm activity.

Fact #2: The last few thousand years according to actual PHYSICAL evidence from ice core samples in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres shows that we have been in a much more stable in the last few hundred years. For instance, 5000 years ago the North American Plains went through a 1000 year drought, There weren't enough humans to cause it.

Also the core samples from the ice sheets show that during a warming trend that happens more regularly than people know since they do not live for several thousand years. Also it was found that when the Earth does warm up the melting ice sheets cool the oceans and regulate the temperature. This also proves that man is not as powerful as he wishes to be, a fact some find hard to believe.

Fact #3: America has more oil reserves than any other country. The Alaskan Oil Reserve and Gulf of Mexico Oil Reserve are as large as all the Middle Eastern Oil Deposits. Runnig out of oil in the next hundred years is not a problem, The need to find cleaner ways to produce energy is. (woops went into editorial mode)

Now for my editorial mode.
1: There is no way for the world to run out of resources.
2: Never trust scientists unless they can completely PROVE there work. I can theorize that the Universe is strapped to a hummingbirds ass but that doesn't make it true. The global Tempurature went down .7 degrees last summer,(fact) IT"S AN ICEAGE COMING!! (theory). Scientists get recognition and funding do to them getting published and recognized, and almost all media in the world revolves around bad news, therefore a person who sounds like they know what there saying starts screaming "The Sky is Falling" everyone looks up and says "I see a chunk right there!!" and catches bird poop in the face
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:25 AM   #19
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rlpw, I like your "Don't believe in everything / question every info you're being told the second you're being presented with it" attitude, especially in this day and age where media and infotainment are king and ruler of them all, but I don't know what to make out of the rest.

For example:

Quote:
Fact #1: Most folks do not reallize what the largest producer of greenhouse gasses, pollution, ozone depleting chemicals, and carbon monoxide isn't human beings but the Earth herself. The actual ejection of material from man is less than 1% of the total that comes from volcanic and storm activity.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Myth: Manmade chlorine is insignificant compared to natural sources

Another objection occasionally voiced is that It is generally agreed that natural sources of tropospheric chlorine (volcanoes, ocean spray, etc.) are four to five orders of magnitude larger than man-made sources. This falls into the "true but irrelevant" category as tropospheric chlorine is irrelevant; it is stratospheric chlorine that matters. The chlorine from ocean spray is in the form HCl and is soluble; it never reaches the stratosphere. CFCs, in contrast, are insoluble and long-lived and hence do reach the stratosphere. Even in the lower atmosphere there is more chlorine present in the form of CFCs and related haloalkanes than there is in HCl from salt spray, and in the stratosphere the organic source gases dominate overwhelmingly. This includes the CFCs and methyl chloride, which has both natural and man made sources. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion)

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There is no way for the world to run out of resources.
Well, that's a theory brought up by you now, yet, care to PROVE that? Kidding. The way the world and everything around you is working right now, really everything is almost completeley dependent on ressources that are going to run out eventually. With the ever ongoing rise of demands for all of these ressources, rather sooner than later. There's a reason to be at least a tiny little bit worried, even if all of this will possibly/probably/definitely(?) not affect you in your lifetime.




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Originally Posted by Flyboy
Even if the ground opened up and the fires of hell shot out and enveloped an entire country, we'd probably just keep driving our SUVs saying "thank god it didn't happen to us." Throughout our entire lives we've been hammered over the head that bigger is better, and more is cheaper. Everywhere you go there are ads telling us to buy useless shit and what do we do? We buy it? Because we don't know anything else anymore. There's no such thing as spiritual enlightenment in the west anymore. Instead we seek to improve the quality of our lives through consumption.
That's true, and... oh man, I hope I won't get bashed to hell and back for saying this, but, come to think of it, lovely stuff like Katrina just didn't have the punch. No way. It was too local a catastrophe, it didn't directly affect anyone but people inhabiting that area, hell it wasn't even anything you haven't heard about earlier or even earlier that year before, which probably made it even easier for people not to link it to a climate change. A possible link which hasn't even been proved yet. Maybe even something of the scale of 9/11 isn't really enough (very likely so). We're talking big catastrophe here, not something out of the 6 billion people of people on Earth who even own one of these see on TV thinking "a-hah" and then switching over to the umpteenth re-run of "Ferris Bueller's Day Off", munching potatoe chips all along. I'm exaggerating here for a reason, maybe. Just in case anybody feels offended reading something like this in the same paragraph that brought up 9/11. Again.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:29 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by rlpw View Post
I'm sorry to have to dissagree with you Flyboy but the hype usually doesn't work out with the facts.

Fact #1: Most folks do not reallize what the largest producer of greenhouse gasses, pollution, ozone depleting chemicals, and carbon monoxide isn't human beings but the Earth herself. The actual ejection of material from man is less than 1% of the total that comes from volcanic and storm activity.

Fact #2: The last few thousand years according to actual PHYSICAL evidence from ice core samples in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres shows that we have been in a much more stable in the last few hundred years. For instance, 5000 years ago the North American Plains went through a 1000 year drought, There weren't enough humans to cause it.

Also the core samples from the ice sheets show that during a warming trend that happens more regularly than people know since they do not live for several thousand years. Also it was found that when the Earth does warm up the melting ice sheets cool the oceans and regulate the temperature. This also proves that man is not as powerful as he wishes to be, a fact some find hard to believe.

I could be extremely rude and say thet you're about as stupid as Bush, but I'm gonna not do that because I think you're a smart person, but maybe been a bit mislead..
It's axtually a concensus between sientists that this global warming is man-made. The Bush administration have for years backed up under sientists that has been questioning this, and even they have changed their mind. Every critical rapport on this issue has been edited heavily by the white house before it's released, and one of the most terrifying reports was supposed to be released a month before the election, but was, by some strange coincidence hold back until after Bush had won...

(I just saw a documentary about this, my grandmother filmed it, but I can't remember witch language it's in.. I can probably get hold of it if you want to see it)

Do you actually doubt that the world is round? There isn't any proof of this, but since it's a concensus among sientists that the world is round, it's counted as a fact. America needs to stop making exuses about why they don't do anything/need to do anything, and start making regulations about factories and car milage, and support other ways of transportation, among other things electric cars..

Al Gore's movie was for us Norwegians (at least, and probably many other European countries) old news, we've heared about this for years, and nobody here is talking about whether or not we're produsing this, they're talking about what we can do to stop it.. It's a slow process because oil companies and such don't want to spend money on such things as cleaning of air, and the government is a bunch of pussies, but we have at least realised the threat..

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Fact #3: America has more oil reserves than any other country. The Alaskan Oil Reserve and Gulf of Mexico Oil Reserve are as large as all the Middle Eastern Oil Deposits. Runnig out of oil in the next hundred years is not a problem, The need to find cleaner ways to produce energy is. (woops went into editorial mode)

Now for my editorial mode.
1: There is no way for the world to run out of resources.
2: Never trust scientists unless they can completely PROVE there work. I can theorize that the Universe is strapped to a hummingbirds ass but that doesn't make it true. The global Tempurature went down .7 degrees last summer,(fact) IT"S AN ICEAGE COMING!! (theory). Scientists get recognition and funding do to them getting published and recognized, and almost all media in the world revolves around bad news, therefore a person who sounds like they know what there saying starts screaming "The Sky is Falling" everyone looks up and says "I see a chunk right there!!" and catches bird poop in the face

And on your fact three, do you really support the idea that when America spends up the oil they've been using up to now (a lot of it coming from warlands as Iraq, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia) they can just start pumping from the nature reservates.. you don't think chopping down a whole lot of forest will hurt us in some way?

I agree that you shouldn't trust anything sientists say only because they're sientists, but being used in this context only sounds like "I don't wanna loose all my spraybox food and maybe pay more for my car".
Answer me this: Does it hurt society that we cut down on oil, spray boxes, CO2 and other such stuff? does it hurt that we force the factories to clean their gasses and think about nature?

Any way you put it, even if you don't believe in global warming, you can still see the effect the factories toxins have on forest and animals..
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