[undeaf]

Originally Posted by Curt

3. Turn off all lights that aren't being used.

Including the LED's attached to my computer? You can just ...

Originally Posted by Curt

4. Use the car as little as possible (Megs and I use the car 2-3 times a month and bicycles/public transport for the rest) and, if you have one, trade that gas-guzzler for an uglier but more environmentally friendly car.

It almost sounds like you're assuming everyone absolutely has to have a car. Hmm, I think I'm starting to see why you people think the world will end.

Originally Posted by Curt

5. Turn the computer off when you're not using it (I'm sometimes guilty of this )

Frequent cold spin ups wear out fluid bearing hard drives at an accellerated rate. Some people's computers are always in use.

It's very wrong to be addressing this equally to people with venice athlons, light video and seasonics and people with presscot pentiums, SLI, and crap power supplies.

I know people that don't even turn off their monitors when not using them. CRT ones! TVs too.

Originally Posted by Curt

7. Cook things in larger amounts that can be eaten 2 days running (we cook a lot in the wok - things heat up quick and the wok retains a lot of heat as iron holds the heat better than steel, plus the iron pot will have a longer lifespan).

I guess you're also saying I should always jam my toaster to capacity?

Originally Posted by Curt

8. Take quicker showers and don't have them too hot, even if it does feel nicer on those cold mornings

So you shower every morning?

Originally Posted by Curt

Alternatively, do nothing, stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Just one warning - it won't!

It'll go away in a few decades. If you want it to, it can go away at any time, just like any other problems westeners feel absolutely have to go away by any means neccessary.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

You sound pretty confident there

You're the one that's absurdly confident about what you want to happen happening, considering how strange and screwed up your dreams are.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Sure, we've spent millions of years evolving into a species that is able to go against the grain of mindlessly reacting to our environment, but on the other hand, for those hundreds of millions of years, we weren't doing much damage on such a global scale.

Please, I'm sure the portion of our hit list from prehistoric times is very long. Just a few items from it(approximate years in brackets):
-astrolopithecuses (-3 500 000 to -2 000 000)
-neanderthals and probably many other species of humanoids (-80 000 to -20 000)
-mammoths (~-10 000 in america, earlier in eurasia)
-american horses (~-10 000)
-other elephants, I don't know what could have made so many of them go extinct if not male idiots trying to show off and be all macho

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I think it's funny how there are people who can still look at the facts and scoff at the situation as being not that big a deal. Like the other half of the world is just making this stuff to scare people into what: consuming less? Who's to benefit financially from that? No one. Maybe there actually are people who have done the math and don't expect a big paycheck in return.

You're saying you couldn't possibly have any motivation for making up these fantasies/scare stories about us going extinct? I don't know if I believe you...

Originally Posted by Flyboy

cleaning away all the filth (read: humans).

Originally Posted by Flyboy

These people are telling us that there are far fewer polar bears today than 30 years ago.

Oh wow, a race of grizzlies disappearing, here come the four horsemen.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Not a popular topic on these forums.

Pffft. At the last forum where I've spent way too much time, SPCR, it's a pretty frequent topic, but, to the best of my recolection, without any posts as hysterical as yours.


Speaking of elephants getting wiped out by us, the present day situation with them is interesting, in india they're actually making a concentrated effort to fight back! On the one hand, it's rather admirable, they have gonads the size of, well, elephant gonads(or more likely, they just have no idea what hey're getting themselves into). On the other hand, it's really pityable how fucked they are.

[undeaf]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

There's no such thing as spiritual enlightenment in the west anymore.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, I hear that in France there's a lot of spiritual people who have been lighting things.

[samIamsad]

Well, in Norway too.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by rlpw

Annual emission rates, Mount St. Helens 1980-1988
Year
kilotons (metric)
1980 222
1981 105
1982 45
1983 39
1984 26
1985 13
1986 17
1987 3.5
1988 2.5

If these statistics prove your point, then I don't see how. That gives less than 500 kilotons in almost a decade - compared to 100 000 kilotons emitted yearly by the tenth country on SGRUGAtes's list. (which, by the way, seems outdated - the 2002 figures based on this site are much greater, sadly)

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by undeaf

Pffft. At the last forum where I've spent way too much time, SPCR, it's a pretty frequent topic, but, to the best of my recolection, without any posts as hysterical as yours.

Hysterical? More like concerned. I'm not exactly standing on a street corner with a sandwich board and a bible shouting about the rapture.

And the confidence comes from the wealth of information that I've read about this in the past few years. I acknowledge that I'm far from being an expert on the subject, but at least I'm not ignorant about the changes in our planet's climate.

And I'm not entirely sure what so "strange and screwed up" about my dreams? Cleaner air? An inhabitable planet for our great-grandchildren? I didn't realize that was such a horrible thing to hope for. I'm just trying to carry on a healthy debate about something that a lot of people feel is quite important these days, and until your post came along, we were at least being quite civil about it.

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

If these statistics prove your point, then I don't see how. That gives less than 500 kilotons in almost a decade - compared to 100 000 kilotons emitted yearly by the tenth country on SGRUGAtes's list. (which, by the way, seems outdated - the 2002 figures based on this site are much greater, sadly)

I was showing what comes out of 1 volcano. and there are over a 1000 just as active and a few hundred more active. I should have elaborated I'm sorry

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I was showing what comes out of 1 volcano. and there are over a 1000 just as active and a few hundred more active. I should have elaborated I'm sorry

Okay, so let's multiply up, then, using a bit of rough and ready mathematics.

I'm going to read "over a 1000" as 1500

1500 x 500 kilotons = 750 000 kilotons.

A few hundred more active? Let's call that 500 volcanoes releasing 1000 kilotons.

500 x 1000 kilotons = 500 000 kilotons.

Total = 1 250 000 kilotons. That's less than the total emissions from just the USA by some way. Now, admittedly I've invented a whole load of figures, and have no idea what the actual value is, but the fact remains that it's likely to be far lower than the value of emissions from the top ten countries taken together.

I just don't follow the argument. Yes, lots of greenhouse gasses are emitted from volcanos. But the suggestion that that doesn't matter is based purely on the position that global warming isn't an issue. Because clearly, if global warming is an issue, we should still be doing our utmost to decrease emissions regardless of where they come from.

So I can only assume that you believe global warming to be a theory that's wrong. And that is entirely possible. But just suppose that it's right. What would you rather have done: wasted some money and time reducing carbon emissions for no environmental reason (but with the side-effect of making the air cleaner, reducing light pollution and what-not) or just ignored the problem entirely and ruined everything for future generations?

It's hardly like turning computers and lights off and driving a car less is going to significantly worsen anybody's life. Except where there's a resistance to anything that isn't the most labour-saving method of doing something.

[Jatsie]

It's time once again for that Bush global warming speech!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wogkDmLlQ

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by RLacey

So I can only assume that you believe global warming to be a theory that's wrong. And that is entirely possible. But just suppose that it's right. What would you rather have done: wasted some money and time reducing carbon emissions for no environmental reason (but with the side-effect of making the air cleaner, reducing light pollution and what-not) or just ignored the problem entirely and ruined everything for future generations?

You're very well-spoken, Mr. Lacey.

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by RLacey

Okay, so let's multiply up, then, using a bit of rough and ready mathematics.

I'm going to read "over a 1000" as 1500

1500 x 500 kilotons = 750 000 kilotons.

A few hundred more active? Let's call that 500 volcanoes releasing 1000 kilotons.

500 x 1000 kilotons = 500 000 kilotons.

Total = 1 250 000 kilotons. That's less than the total emissions from just the USA by some way. Now, admittedly I've invented a whole load of figures, and have no idea what the actual value is, but the fact remains that it's likely to be far lower than the value of emissions from the top ten countries taken together.

I just don't follow the argument. Yes, lots of greenhouse gasses are emitted from volcanos. But the suggestion that that doesn't matter is based purely on the position that global warming isn't an issue. Because clearly, if global warming is an issue, we should still be doing our utmost to decrease emissions regardless of where they come from.

So I can only assume that you believe global warming to be a theory that's wrong. And that is entirely possible. But just suppose that it's right. What would you rather have done: wasted some money and time reducing carbon emissions for no environmental reason (but with the side-effect of making the air cleaner, reducing light pollution and what-not) or just ignored the problem entirely and ruined everything for future generations?

It's hardly like turning computers and lights off and driving a car less is going to significantly worsen anybody's life. Except where there's a resistance to anything that isn't the most labour-saving method of doing something.

That's just the SO2 counts. not to mention the CO1, CO2, atomized metal, sulfuric acid, and other nastys mixed in. for some reason I couldn't find it all. was prob in to much a hurry though

[AFGNCAAP]

To put all volcano speculations to rest:

http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/Gases/man.html
http://volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/gas.htm
http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/Wh...as/volgas.html

Those links were just one google search away, and according to the most optimistic calculations, man's activities contribute 90 times more carbon dioxide than the volcanoes do.

And yes, there are other volcanic gases apart from CO2. But we produce them as well.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I was showing what comes out of 1 volcano. and there are over a 1000 just as active and a few hundred more active. I should have elaborated I'm sorry

And there have been times when there has been greater activity and times of lesser activity. Scientists factor all of that data into their calculations and there is almost universal consensus amongst Scientists that our species is altering the environment greatly in a harmful way. The only thing they can't agree on is just how bad the result of our actions will be and how soon it will be before it is too late for us to start to reverse the process, let alone slow it down - if it's not too late to do that already.

We aren't discussing Scientific theory here, we're discussing Scientific fact - the continuous burning of fossil fuels and the deforestation and burning of large parts of the Earths "lungs" are having a dramatic effect on our environment, the level of CO2, CO and Methane in the atmosphere. This IS causing Global Warming (which has been pointed out does NOT mean everywhere gets warmer - but the overall average temperature of the Earths atmosphere rises and this has many adverse effects).

Climates are being altered, species are becoming endangered, Corals are bleaching, lakes are being poisoned and becoming devoid of life, Spring in many areas is arriving days or weeks earlier, Autumn later, Ice caps are melting, sea levels are rising, asthma and other lung ailments are on the increase due to air pollution, deserts are encroaching on areas faster than ever recorded, rivers that have flowed for thousands of years are drying up.

This isn't about one hurricane last year in the US, it is about an altered cycle that is being categorically recorded and examined by the worlds top Scientists. Some governments are listening, some companies are listening. Some are acting, but not enough. Others are more concerned about their profits and spreading disinformation or starting smear campaigns.

Ignorance is bliss. But if you're on a certain track and see a train heading straight for you, you ignore it at your peril. Sure, you can shut your eyes and cover your ears and convince yourself that it isn't really there. But the longer you do, the much harder it will be to alter your situation once you realize it isn't some illusion.

Many people see threads like this as negative - I don't. I see them as extremely positive because we see that people actually care and want to do their bit without the need to have their governments hold guns to their heads to change things. This isn't doom-mongering. Doom-mongering would be to say why bother, a meteor could hit us next year and destroy the Earth anyway so I'll just get through today.


@undeaf - your points to my post don't justify a reply other than if it was meant as humour you picked the wrong thread to use it.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Jat316sob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wogkDmLlQ

"deeply in a deep kind of concerned way.." Who's that Ferrel guy?

[Jatsie]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002071/

[undeaf]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

...

What's so strange and screwed up about wanting to see humans wiped off the face of the earth? Well ... I don't really have the time to explain it right now, maybe someone else could help clarify it for you?

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Jat316sob

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002071/

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH, I knew I had seen him in DICK! The President's dog doesn't "poop." He "does his business". Alright, back on topic. Eventually.

[undeaf]

Originally Posted by Curt

@undeaf - your points to my post don't justify a reply other than if it was meant as humour you picked the wrong thread to use it.

Looks to me like you're feeling very awkward about your assumption that people need 50 watt light bulbs, 300 watt computers, big ovens for everything, cars and daily showers in the first place.

[rlpw]

Curt,
Climate changes constantly if humans are here or not. I have been reading for the past few hours both pro and con and I'm beginning to think all of it is junk science on both sides. Now if you are argueing about pollution and overconsuming you have a valid point, but all this human causeing global warming is theory, and theory is an opinion.

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by undeaf

What's so strange and screwed up about wanting to see humans wiped off the face of the earth? Well ... I don't really have the time to explain it right now, maybe someone else could help clarify it for you?

What's the point of a beautiful and healthy Earth if we're not around to enjoy it?

--Erwin

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by undeaf

What's so strange and screwed up about wanting to see humans wiped off the face of the earth? Well ... I don't really have the time to explain it right now, maybe someone else could help clarify it for you?

I don't remember wanting humans to be wiped off the earth. Suggesting that something is either inevitable or might be the natural order of things is quite different than wishing it to happen. I'm simply saying that what goes around comes around and centuries of planetary neglect might come back and bite us in the ass. So please don't liken me to Hitler, I don't appreciate it.