[Squinky]

Originally Posted by MikeLXXXVIII

Out of curiousity Squinky, in what context did you show me this? ...If you could elaborate yourself as I might have misunderstood the "point" that was to be made. I would love to discuss the male privilege but also female ones. The same with the privilege of certain groups for certain situations.

Okay, so here's the thing. Yes, everyone can say bad things about a group of people. But some groups of people have more power in society than others. This is called privilege. When a group of people with privilege makes negative remarks towards a group without privilege, there is a weight of institutionalised power behind said remarks. It builds on an entire history of oppression, of repeated messages from society telling you you're no good, costing you your job, your education, your personal safety, and many other opportunities to succeed in life. This is not the case the other way around. When a group of non-privileged people makes negative remarks towards a privileged group, there is no such institutionalised power, so they can take it as just a silly insult.

It's hard to see if you have a lot of privilege yourself, but believe it or not, it's there.

Originally Posted by rlpw

Well, Ms McIntosh's list mostly read like the rights all Americans have if they choose to use them. The rest are implied racists remarks that, to me, are just meant to stir up anger and self loathing. It shows that her primary ideology is to stereotype the people she is accusing of stereotyping. I am an individual that makes up my own mind about people on an individual basis.

We're not talking about individuals, we're talking about institutions. Here's a rather apt analogy (from here):

When I was in high school, we played a game we called Asshole, or to be polite, Donkey, which was a basic discard card game. The twist was that after each round, when the next round's cards were dealt, the loser had to give their two highest cards to the winner, who could give any two cards to the loser. Obviously, this set-up disadvantaged the loser, and benefited the winner. But even with that advantage, the loser could still win the next round, and the winner could still lose. That doesn't mean there was a level playing field.

So, you see, even though people are individuals and are free to do whatever they want with the cards they're dealt, some groups of people are born with better cards than others. What you're saying would be all well and good if everyone were to have equal opportunity, but the fact is, we don't. This isn't meant as a slight against you personally. It's the way society is structured. We don't want to stir up anger or self-loathing; we want to work for positive change so that we can have a level playing field.

Originally Posted by rlpw

While this does sound cruel to a lot of people the reverse is far worse. Oppressed majorities are far worse

I don't believe in considering one oppression "worse" than another. Oppression is oppression no matter what, and no context ever makes it right. I don't think anybody who's working against prejudice wants that prejudice to be reversed; they simply want it eliminated.

Originally Posted by rlpw

The interesting thing about this is that, if in all honesty, white males were in complete dominant control of the society then all women would be married off to whom their fathers picked and killed if they dishonored him.

True, but there isn't a dichotomy between "complete dominant control" and "equality". There are shades of grey in between. Sure, women in the US are generally better off than women in the Middle East, but that doesn't mean they're completely equal to men. We've still got a lot of work to do.

Originally Posted by MikeLXXXVIII

I keep seeing ways where men are discriminated, it is usually ridiculed when spoken of such.

I'll be the first to agree that many men are discriminated against, and by the very same patriarchal social structures that feminists are trying to dismantle, at that! My question for you is, are you highlighting these slights against men because you believe they're wrong and ought to be fixed, or because you want other groups of people who voice complaints to shut up because hey, everyone's got problems?

Oh, and here's some more recommended reading.

[rlpw]

I love it when she dissects my words to almost, but not completely, turn me to her side. I guess I do not understand privilege since I was raised to do your best no matter what. I considered me getting raises, promotions, and training on my individual work ethic not just because I'm a white male.
Though I believe I am still right about majority rule I also must apologize for the 'dominant father' analogy. I did it to provoke a response and, after thinking, realized it was a cruel way to do it.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by rlpw

I love it when she dissects my words to almost, but not completely, turn me to her side.

I'm not trying to turn anyone to my side. I'm just trying to explain why I believe what I do... although, I must admit, it's nice to find common ground.

Originally Posted by rlpw

I guess I do not understand privilege since I was raised to do your best no matter what. I considered me getting raises, promotions, and training on my individual work ethic not just because I'm a white male.

The way I've come to understand privilege is, ultimately, by knowing that I myself have lots of it. I mean, on one hand, I'm brown and female, two things that work against me in the society I live in. On the other hand, I come from an upper middle class family, which allowed me to grow up in very comfortable circumstances that gave me opportunities to learn and grow in ways that I couldn't have had I been born in a less affluent family. Ultimately, it was up to me to choose what to do with these opportunities, but if I hadn't had a computer available to me in my home at a young age, or been able to get my university degree in computer science, or had enough money to travel to California and gain experience as an intern at one of my favourite video game companies, I'd be in a completely different place, career-wise. Hence, while I did put a lot of my own initiative and work ethic into where I am today, I had a lot of help getting there.

[MikeLXXXVIII]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Okay, so here's the thing. Yes, everyone can say bad things about a group of people. But some groups of people have more power in society than others. This is called privilege. When a group of people with privilege makes negative remarks towards a group without privilege, there is a weight of institutionalised power behind said remarks. It builds on an entire history of oppression, of repeated messages from society telling you you're no good, costing you your job, your education, your personal safety, and many other opportunities to succeed in life. This is not the case the other way around. When a group of non-privileged people makes negative remarks towards a privileged group, there is no such institutionalised power, so they can take it as just a silly insult.

It's hard to see if you have a lot of privilege yourself, but believe it or not, it's there.

Well I do not deny what you have said there, it's all true and something we cannot rid entirely. We need to make ourselves conscious of these ties in order to get rid of them as I agreed with the article, also by aknowledging them.

I remember these institutional power, and other terms when reading on some sociology when I got some single subjects.

But I would like to take some of these aspects a step higher, not only just the classical race and gender/sex but also looks! Which is one thing I feel people ignore and avoid discussing. To me it is an excuse when people say, oh we can't help judging other due to how they are born. It is just natural! BUT just saying that is a fault in itself, because even if its natural does not mean we cannot adjust or be more conscious over our discrimination of those who do not fit the "ideal" looks.

I feel like there is nobody out there speaking for those who fall into this unfortunate category (getting bullied due to how they are born, don't get jobs because they weren't cute or "pretty" enough). Looks can be anything even height! maybe I might go a bit too far feeling a bit guilty for being tall knowing that it brings greater success than being not that tall. But to me I don't feel right accepting these "coincidences" and go on with the privileges and not care about those who are less unfortunate.

So to me this has a higher concern due to the fact that most people I talk about don't care or understand what I am trying to say and continue their unchallenged discrimination of others. Even those who fall into the "unfortunate" group *as I call it here* also share the same look ideals as everyone else. To me its just disgusting if you love and care for someone but cannot be with them because they aren't born a certain way. There is enough evidence that physical attraction is not just based on physical but also mental attributes.

Originally Posted by Squinky

I'll be the first to agree that many men are discriminated against, and by the very same patriarchal social structures that feminists are trying to dismantle, at that! My question for you is, are you highlighting these slights against men because you believe they're wrong and ought to be fixed, or because you want other groups of people who voice complaints to shut up because hey, everyone's got problems?

Oh, and here's some more recommended reading.

Well I voiced it more in the ways of it to be fixed, I believe that things can be fixed if we try. Not garanteed of course due to the power of certain dominating cultures, but if one tries to voice and put it into perspective, more will likely follow and maybe eventually in the future someone with an upper hand can influence and make some change. (Which is precisely why I want to get closer to politics.)

I do believe there exist a degree of problems so I wouldn't exacly support shutting up everyone because "everyone" has got problems. I think its ridiculous to not see the different degrees of problems. Because there is a big difference of someone having a problem with not being able to buy certain materialistic needs and those who lack food to survive. Usually I come into an argument with people who don't want to consider buying more ethical products, because in their defence they say they have their own problems to concern with as if there is no opening for improvement or considerations of others who might have it worse than you.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Dear Blog Thingy,

I miss my volunteer work with school kids at the Asian art museum. Started the program a year and a half ago, training via lectures and papers for several months before granted full fledged docent status (even though I already have a degree in Fine Art with solid Art History knowledge). I still have my badge. Had to give up the docentship over a month ago because I was then working full-time and had to look after Nanay, who is 82 years old, legally blind, and has a heart condition.

Perhaps once we finally move up to the bay area I could look into programs at, say, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, or another institution nearby. Not sure yet, but I do know I want to work with kids again, particularly kids who may not be so privileged to be exposed to culture in a big way.

I do, however, look forward to doing the AIDS Walk in San Francisco next month with my niece/best friend. This cause is very important to me, very close to home. It'll be my third city I walked in (the first two being L.A. and Chicago), and I know, nowhere near my last.

[rlpw]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Perhaps once we finally move up to the bay area I could look into programs at, say, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, or another institution nearby. Not sure yet, but I do know I want to work with kids again, particularly kids who may not be so privileged to be exposed to culture in a big way.

When I finally get over that way you're going to have to hook me up with all the natural history museums.

[bulldog]

Originally Posted by rlpw

When I finally get over that way you're going to have to hook me up with all the natural history museums.

I agree..... I love love to meat Trepsie......

Think of me Trepsie when your doing your walk... kisses

[MikeLXXXVIII]

Originally Posted by Squinky

I'm not trying to turn anyone to my side. I'm just trying to explain why I believe what I do... although, I must admit, it's nice to find common ground.


The way I've come to understand privilege is, ultimately, by knowing that I myself have lots of it. I mean, on one hand, I'm brown and female, two things that work against me in the society I live in. On the other hand, I come from an upper middle class family, which allowed me to grow up in very comfortable circumstances that gave me opportunities to learn and grow in ways that I couldn't have had I been born in a less affluent family. Ultimately, it was up to me to choose what to do with these opportunities, but if I hadn't had a computer available to me in my home at a young age, or been able to get my university degree in computer science, or had enough money to travel to California and gain experience as an intern at one of my favourite video game companies, I'd be in a completely different place, career-wise. Hence, while I did put a lot of my own initiative and work ethic into where I am today, I had a lot of help getting there.

Yeah I think its important that people reflect over things like that. Too few do that in my opinion. Go Squinky!

And dissecting things is pretty interesting! because words and sentences have a very complex but also a spesific purpose/meaning/expression. A norwegian author actually Henrik Ibsen I think it was once said "words are like weapons", because they can influence a lot!.
By looking into semiotics it is pretty fascinating how well compiled and well thought words are made. So you can find a lot of things by dissecting someones sentences, especially mine .
:p

Like we have a wide range of sentences to form based on what we would like to present ourselves with. We do know most of the time what "codes" fit for what situation, or what codes we would like to use in a particular manner. Like to avoid saying inappropriate stuff for situations we would like to avoid.

By dissecting you can discover a lot of interesting things you didn't think of before. But then it can also lead to overassumptions :p. I remember being in this class with a lot different people from different institutes. I loved listening to this certain student who dissected the authors words and finding some "proof" over certain words of use that this author made which sounded biased. Being able to spot such things in litterature is pretty important, and not just take things for granted that the person you are reading isn't holding something back. There is always a certain discourse going around either you like it or not!.

There is too few of those students and I have noticed that you do get punished for being like that. The irony is that the university encourages you to be independent and question your surroundings, but its rare that they accept that practice. Usually they pretend that those who found a new approach didn't explain themselves well, but I am sure thats just an excuse because I have noticed personally that people don't like to look at things from a new perspective if it threatens dominant ideals. So you have to be careful with your opinions sadly.

Sorry I talk all over places, as went from dissecting/linguistics to critisize the educational system.

[Jazhara7]

Dear Aggie,

Post-spinal headache sucks. Even more than suffering an epileptic attack before it - at least I don't remember anything of that. But this headache I can do nothing against, not even taking two Aspirin helps. My mother says that drinking lots of water helps, but I have yet to see any result. This has been going since monday afternoon. I hope I will be fit again by Friday, so I can meet Thomas.


-

[rlpw]

(((Jazzie)))
I cannot for the life of me even understand that pain!

[Hammerite]

I'm quite happy at the moment, as something I said earlier made a girl who I am madly obsessed with laugh a little bit.

It's stupid how something so small managed to make my day...

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Jazhara7

Dear Aggie,

Post-spinal headache sucks. Even more than suffering an epileptic attack before it - at least I don't remember anything of that.

(((Jaz))) I didn't know you get epileptic attacks. Or those kinds of headaches either. I'm sending positive energy your way!

I hope I will be fit again by Friday, so I can meet Thomas.

???? Boyfriend???

(Yes, curiosity will kill me some day.)

[Jazhara7]

Originally Posted by Jelena

(((Jaz))) I didn't know you get epileptic attacks. Or those kinds of headaches either. I'm sending positive energy your way!

Neither did I. This was my first ever. We assume it was triggered by a combination of exhaustion, too little water consumption, and general stress.

The headaches are a normal result from doing anything near the spinal chord. So no, I don't usually get such headaches. Luckily we just got a tip from the hospital what medicine helps with these better.

???? Boyfriend???

(Yes, curiosity will kill me some day.)

Not yet. ^_^


Also, I did have a boyfriend until two weeks ago, but sadly he split up with me, because his ex-girlfriend had come back. Don't understand this wrong though. He didn't come visit to quit, but made the decision while here. Either way two people would end up crying, the person he decided against, and he himself, because he loved us both. A few days earlier he had chosen me, but then he was confronted with her again, and it threw his feelings all into chaos again. I am still sad, of course, but there is nothing I can do about it, except look ahead.

In case you are wondering, why I hadn't mentioned anything earlier, it's because I wanted to see how things developed. Now it seems they are to stay this way for now, so I am looking ahead. And a friend of mine decided to introduce me to Thomas, and since she had the right instinct before, I trust her judgement.

-

[bulldog]

((((Jaz))))) time will heal your broken heart. I'm sorry that you have a nasty headache.


Ham- That is awsome..... its the little things that make life great

[tsa]

Originally Posted by Jazhara7

Dear Aggie,

Post-spinal headache sucks. Even more than suffering an epileptic attack before it - at least I don't remember anything of that. But this headache I can do nothing against, not even taking two Aspirin helps. My mother says that drinking lots of water helps, but I have yet to see any result. This has been going since monday afternoon. I hope I will be fit again by Friday, so I can meet Thomas.


-

Poor Jaz (hug). I didn't know you suffered from epilepsy. Get well soon! Who is Thomas?

[tsa]

Ah, all my questions were answered already. Sorry. I hope you and Thomas work out well Jazz!

[rlpw]

Who is this guy who made one of my little girls cry!?!?!? I'll go Endless on his ass!

[Hammerite]

I'm feeling quite nervous about how I'm going to fair when, in a few months, I'll be going to university.
I'm really quite shy, and I'm therefore quite worried that I'll be spending an incredibly lonely three years...

[Giligan]

Everyone going to college at first is looking to make friends. Besides, most everyone at a good college has at least some degree of maturity and adulthood, and hence the social circles are a bit more open. I've already made several good friends at my school, and I haven't even moved onto campus yet.

[tsa]

I was also pretty shy when I went to University, but because the people are indeed more mature there I soon had a few friends that I still see from time to time, 20 years later. Don't worry too much Hammie.