[Tamara]

I'm someone who thinks far too much at any time .. but particularly at the moment for some reason. The following is a collection of some of the things I've been pondering about lately. It's somewhat depressive and pessimistic in a way .. but all the questions are serious ones.

I am trapped by my mind.

Most people would worry about whether free will really does exist; they worry about predetermination and whether, in the grand scheme of things, they ever have a choice to do something, or whether they’re merely pre-programmed from the start. Me, I don’t have that problem. My predicament, on the contrary, is that I worry I don’t ever not have a choice. That I am always in control, making my situation what it is. Think about it for a moment. Consider the ramifications. No person would want that kind of responsibility.

My mind is constantly working, assessing, analysing. Working out the best moves, scheming, planning. Manipulating. There is never a second’s respite. I have no idea whether all people work this way but don’t think about it much, or if it just me. I am acutely aware of the fact that we are all, every one of us, selfish beings. Each one of our actions is calculated to benefit us in some way. In our daily dealings, we manipulate people and things to our own advantage. Even seemingly altruistic actions, where we stand to gain nothing materially, are performed ultimately for own emotional benefit. We do good deeds in order to feel good about ourselves, to convince ourselves that we are essentially good people, to hide our own innate selfishness from ourselves. Not only do we manipulate others, but we constantly manipulate ourselves and our own feelings.

Which immediately begs the question: how much of what we experience, of what we feel, is real, genuine? If we are capable of manipulating ourselves to accept an altered version of reality on one occasion, what is to say that all our perceptions are not equally tainted? As an example, I suffered from acute depression at one point; I spent years in a seemingly endless blackness. Yet, serious as the affliction was, to the point where it seemed I had no control over my actions, eventually I took the reins in my own hands. I stopped taking medications and going to a therapist, did not allow myself to think certain thoughts, forced myself to begin going out. Nowadays, I lead an entirely normal life; although I am depressed more often than anyone knows, I can control my state of mind, I am capable of stopping myself mid-track. Looking back at my actions when seriously depressed, I find them hard to comprehend. I think – how melodramatic! What I needed was to kick myself up the arse! But my dramatic - although gradual - recovery leads to a philosophical dilemma. Was my depression real? Did I allow it to happen by purposely indulging myself and my feelings of self-pity? And if it was real, is my recovery real? Am I merely fooling myself, covering things up? Either conclusion is equally frightening. They mean that my power over myself and my own perception is alarmingly great. They mean I can never quite be certain of anything I feel or believe, that I cannot trust my own senses. They mean that I am capable of manipulating the very reality I perceive – moreover, that I am capable of changing the way I perceive myself! And surely that amounts to changing who I am. My mind, then, is a dangerously powerful beast.

And so, I examine my beliefs and feelings, unable to trust them, unable to ascertain which, if any, are fake, contrived, untrue to myself – whoever that may be. This occurs even in relatively trivial situations. When I am intoxicated, for example. I am never quite certain how much of the effect I am feeling is genuine, and how much I am deceiving myself into feeling intoxicated, acting to myself, because that is the way I would like to feel. No matter how much I drink or smoke, I suspect I am exaggerating the effects to myself and others. I feel as if I am imagining the effect of the drug … that it is all in my mind. This suspicion is stoked by factors such as getting drunker more easily when I am tired (Is it only the tiredness that makes me feel that way?) and the fact that I am always able to sober up to some extent when necessary (If I am able to control the effects, does that mean they were never there, or not real?). My mind is generally overactive on these occasions; it is impossible to switch off. It nags at me, telling me that I’m a fraud, that I’m not really smashed, until sometimes it sobers me up. My mind is almost never affected; it races along logically, even if there are often undisputed physical effects, such as dizziness. I am grateful for these signs that I may not be fooling myself. It should be impossible to be unaffected by the doses I’ve taken .. and yet .. and yet I feel unconvinced. Uncertain of where the line between reality and my imagination lies. The only thing that is absolutely certain is that I think far too much.

The only point at which there is some brief respite is in my dreams. There is no waking moment at which my mind lets me be, but during my dreams it is mercifully quiet. There is a limited awareness of consequences within the dream, but no incessant analysing of every last detail. What a blessed relief! And my mind is reluctant to let go even there – my frequent insomnia is a testament to that.

And so, we return to the beginning. I am trapped by my mind. Tormented by its constant analysing, its taunts to me that I am a fake, a fraud. What I would like, more than anything, would be to escape my contriving, conniving mind. To switch it off. To stop it constantly assessing incoming data and plotting as to how it will act on it in the future. I would give anything for a substance that would temporarily stop my mind. Something that would render it unable to calculate consequences, unable to judge, to analyse, to assess. For my mind not to be able to exercise any real control over my actions. To act without choice, simply by instinct, nature, without any artifice. To experience without constant cogitation, to do without thinking, worrying or philosophising. To just be. Once would be enough. The mere knowledge that it is possible not to be under my own control, to experience a reality without a doubt beyond my own manipulation, would be enough. To know that there is an escape route. That I do not have to be constantly in control; that briefly escaping responsibility, even if only for my thoughts, is a possibility. Even the knowledge of that possibility, the memory of that freedom, might allow my tortured mind to rest. That brief respite – into or from reality? Who knows?

[Titan]

Tamara, sounds to me like you are one of those few people who know they live on the existential abyss and are concerned about authenticity. Most everyone else throughout the world has the exact opposite problem.

As for relief from the side effects of your station there are many. Some, such as religious conversion, won't appeal to you. At the risk of suggesting a metaphysical 'switch' in the sense of flipping off the lights for awhile, have you ever read some of the Carlos Castenada books. They concern his supposed life as an apprentice with the Yanqui Indian 'brujo' Don Juan, who lived in Mexico and maintained that the hardest but most rewarding accomplishment was turning off one's internal dialogue with oneself, at least occasionally.

[Ninja Dodo]

Just a thought, but maybe putting it into words, writing it, can offer some relief?

Not saying you should write in a diary or something... but maybe try your hand at creative writing? I find it can be pretty immersive, to the point where you're not thinking about anything else... you're actually there experiencing the story.

[Ninja Dodo]

As for control... I don't believe there is such a thing. Life consists of a string of accidents and coincidence. If my dad's vacation plan hadn't fallen through, he wouldn't have volunteered for an excavation, where he then wouldn't have met my mom and I wouldn't exist. It's all like this. I'm amazed on a daily basis by how much everything depends on randomness.

[Erwin_Br]

Most of the time I can't even control my own mind and my own thoughts.

--Erwin

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

If my dad's vacation plan hadn't fallen through, he wouldn't have volunteered for an excavation, where he then wouldn't have met my mom and I wouldn't exist.

Totally off-topic here (as usual), but that sounds like Back to the Future. I love that movie.

[Bard09]

Tamara, I emphasize with your feelings and especially getting lost in the objectivity of self-conscious thinking. It's truly frightening when you realize how conscious you can be of every single, tiny facet of how you can act in a given situation. Sometimes you wish you could be one of those people who seems to act on impulse, intuition, shutting that damn brain of yours off for ten minutes. I know I'm being rather concise at the moment, but, rest assured, you are not the only one with such a perspective.

I think Ninja was on the right track by suggesting writing as a method of exercising the madness (figurative madness, of course. Dear me, if your diatribe meant madness, most of the world's greatest artists/thinkers would have been locked up). Although the self-obsessed writer is a common "stereotype" in literature, theatre, and film, the reason it exists is because many of the people behind such works have a related sense of pathos.

Right now, I'm full of empathy, but I should really be giving you the kick in the pants you need. You mentioned that you were depressed in the light of such consuming thoughts; you honestly shouldn't be. Despite the drudgery this line of thinking tends to bring up, there is no point of being consumed by the depression... even if you feel you are exacerbating your own feelings. You have to be pluralistic about the whole thing and realize that people who let those thoughts prevent them from moving forward pretty much just "stop."

Now that you've realized one of your demons, it's time to get comfortable with it. Give it a friendly name and take it on walks occaisionally, but never, ever let it start taking YOU out on a leash.

And hey-- perhaps it's time to let emotion take over once in a while. I read an excellent book on intelligences a while back. There's a kind of emotional intelligence just as much as there is an analytical intelligence. The question is if you can willingly let emotion dictate your thoughts for a while versus analyzing the situation. You might want to try to simply stop "analyzing" for a first step. If you're talking to someone and feel like laughing, let that feeling guide you, not the urge to laugh because of a conditioned response to a joke. Let a conversation drift from one topic to another, aimless. "Association" for me has been a far greater aid than analysis. You might want to give it a shot.

I hope this helps... even a little. I always feel that my writing never completely conveys what I am thinking. This is a message I'd hate to screw up

[Adventurer]

uhu

[Tamara]

Uhhh, OK .. I think most people (apart, I think, from Titan) have misunderstood this post. That mini-essay was meant as a philosophical work .. considering the nature of reality, where self begins and reality ends .. all very interesting questions which cannot ever entirely be answered but which can be pondered and debated on. I was not saying that I'm having some kind of psychological crisis. All the examples were simply there to illustrate a point.

In any case, one by one.

Titan: thanks for the name, I'll look that up

Ninja Dodo: That's what I was doing actually. Putting my thoughts down in an ordered manner. I do creative writing, though, too. As far as coincidence etc: Fair enough, but that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about control over yourself. Quite obviously, people have limited control over what is in their immediate vicinity and none over, say, what is happening in New York that may very well affect you later on. That is [for me] philosophically uninteresting though, it's a given.

Originally Posted by bard09

Right now, I'm full of empathy, but I should really be giving you the kick in the pants you need. You mentioned that you were depressed in the light of such consuming thoughts; you honestly shouldn't be.

Nonono. Sorry if I gave that impression, but no, I'm not depressed -- I have been in the past, but I only used that as an example. I did say the post might have seemed depressive or negative, but that's because its tone is, a little, as far as being certain of any reality goes. At most, I'm philosophically pessimistic. This isn't one of my demons at all ... it was thinking about stuff, that's all, which I tend to consider positive, even when the things you think about are uncomfortable. I'd prefer to face up to uncomfortable truths, particularly about myself. It is partly how I get to be so much in control. Ironically enough. Actually, it is generally a positive thing and I am glad I'm the way I am .. questioning one's own motiviations is hard, but, I think, important.

Adventurer: I appreciate the thoughts but I think you misunderstood the spirit in which I wrote that. As far as depression goes, my past is for the most part behind me and I am very much a different person these days. I have a depressive presonality, it will always be in my nature to be predisposed to depression, however it is also within my capability to control that. As far as dope/alcohol goes, well, I drink very very rarely, smoke somewhat more often, but still not so that you could say it's excessive. As I say, that was only an example. Was not hinting that I have an problem there. Incidentally though, 5 beers will not get me drunk. I have a very high tolerance, which is one reason I drink rarely -- don't have the kind of money to buy that amount of drinks. I have problems with insomnia, but it has good periods and bad periods .. this is a not-too bad period where I have about 1 day a week max that I don't sleep. Dope helps a lot with that.

you are struggling with yourself by doing things you really don’t want to do but some products are stronger then a firm will or thougt.....

well, no Everything I do, I do because I want to, what I question is my own motivations. And, honestly, I've never tried any product that is stronger than my will (although, I've never dabbled with anything but alcohol and dope).

Aaaaaaaaaaanyway. To recap:

• The post is about the nature of reality. Anyone who'd like to discuss that, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
• I'm not depressed and don't need free counselling, but thanks for the thought

[Erwin_Br]

I feel sorry for the guys who wrote more in their replies than I did.

Heh.

...

hehehehehe!

--Erwin

[Erwin_Br]

sorry.

--Erwin

[Adventurer]

Originally Posted by Erwin_Br

I feel sorry for the guys who wrote more in their replies than I did.

Heh.

...

hehehehehe!

--Erwin

Laughing My Ass Off !!

[Adventurer]

As for you Tamara i'm glad everything is fine with you, was just thinking you where in a pit of despair for a moment.
the thing i wanted to try was giving you some insight in things where i understood you had a minor problem with. but it's not ...

you made me type all that for nothing!?

*sinks away in a depression* lol

going to remove the previous post that it can make some room for new posts.

*bonk bonk*

[DomStLeger]

I'm probably talking nonsense below and using very fluffy superficial logic, but I'm not a deep enough thinker to recognise it. But still, heres my contribution:

Originally Posted by Tamara

My mind is constantly working, assessing, analysing. Working out the best moves, scheming, planning. Manipulating. There is never a second’s respite. I have no idea whether all people work this way but don’t think about it much, or if it just me. I am acutely aware of the fact that we are all, every one of us, selfish beings. Each one of our actions is calculated to benefit us in some way. In our daily dealings, we manipulate people and things to our own advantage. Even seemingly altruistic actions, where we stand to gain nothing materially, are performed ultimately for own emotional benefit. We do good deeds in order to feel good about ourselves, to convince ourselves that we are essentially good people, to hide our own innate selfishness from ourselves. Not only do we manipulate others, but we constantly manipulate ourselves and our own feelings.

Thats a rather pessimistic view of the human condition. Does everything you do really benefit you? Are you really always looking for whats the greatest benefit to you? I personally believe that true altruism does exist, even if there is always some benefit to the person trying to be altruistic (eg: feeling good about yourself). In the end it's not whether human nature means everyone is selfish that matters, but rather whether we let ourselves be selfish and be defined by basic needs and wants. We can do good deeds, but we shouldn't be guilty about doing them just because there is some benefit to us somewhere down the line. If we were utterly selfish, perhaps we would be individually much better off. So while we feel good after an altruistic act, that benefit is probably small in comparison to the benefits we've let go to try to live up to an ideal of what it is to be a decent human being. So rather than be pessimistic and say we're ultimately selfish and manipulative, I'd rather say we strive to be better than our basic nature.

And that links into reality, because (I know this is stupidly simple thing to say but I'm not a deep enough tinker to offer more) reality is just our perception of the world around us. We define out world, which means that it is ALL real to us, because it's our reality. Yes our reality changes, and even conflicts with what we percieved or believed in the past, but it doesn't mean the way we see the world is invalid "then compared to now", or equally "now compared to then". It's just different.

Originally Posted by Tamara

And so, I examine my beliefs and feelings, unable to trust them, unable to ascertain which, if any, are fake, contrived, untrue to myself – whoever that may be. This occurs even in relatively trivial situations. When I am intoxicated, for example. I am never quite certain how much of the effect I am feeling is genuine, and how much I am deceiving myself into feeling intoxicated, acting to myself, because that is the way I would like to feel. No matter how much I drink or smoke, I suspect I am exaggerating the effects to myself and others. I feel as if I am imagining the effect of the drug … that it is all in my mind. This suspicion is stoked by factors such as getting drunker more easily when I am tired (Is it only the tiredness that makes me feel that way?) and the fact that I am always able to sober up to some extent when necessary (If I am able to control the effects, does that mean they were never there, or not real?). My mind is generally overactive on these occasions; it is impossible to switch off. It nags at me, telling me that I’m a fraud, that I’m not really smashed, until sometimes it sobers me up. My mind is almost never affected; it races along logically, even if there are often undisputed physical effects, such as dizziness. I am grateful for these signs that I may not be fooling myself. It should be impossible to be unaffected by the doses I’ve taken .. and yet .. and yet I feel unconvinced. Uncertain of where the line between reality and my imagination lies. The only thing that is absolutely certain is that I think far too much.

I think this may be an example of our personal perceptions and reality in action. "My mind is almost never affected; it races along logically, even if there are often undisputed physical effects, such as dizziness." - The problem there is the frame of reference. We think we're being logical when we're drunk because the logic we use and actions we take at that time make perfect sense. Then we look back, our memory is that we thought "I'm not drunk, I can still think logically and everything makes sense". And we remember what events happened and what we did and it makes sense in retrospect. But the problem is that at that time our perception was alterted, and that alters our logic and more importantly what we remember. So we look back and we say, no perhaps I wasn't drunk because I remember why I did X,Y, and Z. But when we're looking back our memories are only in the same frame of reference we used to come to the decisions.

For example, if you watched the events of a night out drinking on a video camara, you would probably pick up different events as being important as you're perceiving the events in a different "perceptual state" - i.e. as a sober person. Then when comparing the decisions made then to the decisions you'd make in a sober state, it may become apparent that there was some effect.

I'm not talking about you specifically, it's just my verbose way of saying that a very important part of what reality is to us is defined by our memory. For example, say you meet someone and they say something very insulting and then something very funny. If you only remember the insulting thing, you will percieve the person one way, if you only remember the funny thing you'll percieve them another. What we remember defines our world.

From a personal point of view, this worries me. I personally have a terrible memory, especially for events and details. So I feel like I'm missing out on an important part of my own life, because I don't remember important events in my life in enough detail. And those events, those memories, help define the people we are and the way we see the world. So it makes me feel a little deficient, and so I question whether the world I perceive it the world I should we perceiving.

[Tamara]

Heh, Adventurer, sorry .. you shouldn't have deleted your post, though .. it was definitely more ontopic than erwin's anyway

Dom: Finally, exactly the kind of reply I was looking for (But then I guess you know me pretty well by now )

If we were utterly selfish, perhaps we would be individually much better off. So while we feel good after an altruistic act, that benefit is probably small in comparison to the benefits we've let go to try to live up to an ideal of what it is to be a decent human being. So rather than be pessimistic and say we're ultimately selfish and manipulative, I'd rather say we strive to be better than our basic nature.

That's not true. One of the reasons we (as a species) have advanced as much as we have and are able to live in incredible luxury (compared to, say, 10,000 years ago, all of us do) is because we are sometimes able to put aside our individual needs and be altruistic .. that is the foundation of a society. The predisposition towards altruism evolved precisely because it does benefit us, in the long run. I've been reading a lot about the science/philosophy of science behind this kind of thing, which is perhaps partly what inspired this diatribe. So yes, it is an incredibly pessimistic view of human nature .. but I'm not convinced it's wrong. I mean, I consider myself a pretty damn nice person .. I care about people and generally try to help out when I can. And yet if I fine-comb why, if I go deep enough, I will almost always find some kind of ulterior motive. It doesn't ultimately mean I'm a bad person, because it's part of the human condition .. still isn't nice though.

I think this may be an example of our personal perceptions and reality in action. "My mind is almost never affected; it races along logically, even if there are often undisputed physical effects, such as dizziness." - The problem there is the frame of reference. We think we're being logical when we're drunk because the logic we use and actions we take at that time make perfect sense. [.. etc ..]

Well, actually, most of the essay is, content-wise, exactly what I was saying to my boyfriend when very, very stoned. [down to the 'Even now, my mind is working logically' .. lol .. poor bastard .. kept shutting him up when he wanted to add something, too ] Some parts I'd thought about before, some I formalised at that point. So .. well .. if it makes sense to you now, it made sense then.

And those events, those memories, help define the people we are and the way we see the world. So it makes me feel a little deficient, and so I question whether the world I perceive it the world I should we perceiving.

As you know I've got whole chunks of my life I don't remember for other reasons, so I do know how that feels. My reaction, later, was to start a very detailed diary .. writing once a week and puttingdown pretty much everything I did. ATM I'm taking a bit of a break because I can't be bothered, but I do have a solid 1 1/2 years of my life in there. Just knowing it's there if you ever want it helps.

[Ninja Dodo]

Originally Posted by Tamz

Bitter? Moi? Never!

Anyway, not really the philosophical type myself. I mostly tend to drift into political ponderings rather than philosophical musings...

[Adventurer]

Originally Posted by Tamara

Heh, Adventurer, sorry .. you shouldn't have deleted your post, though .. it was definitely more ontopic than erwin's anyway

lol too late now

[Adventurer]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Anyway, not really the philosophical type myself. I mostly tend to drift into political ponderings rather than philosophical musings...

are you serious about the political stuff??
nah, nice to see that some people are intrested in that side of the world.

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Anyway, not really the philosophical type myself. I mostly tend to drift into political ponderings rather than philosophical musings...

I'm philosophical at certain times, not always. Sometimes it's triggered too; after reading a good book for example.

Come to think of it, I haven't been in a philosopical mood for weeks now. What's wrong with me!?

--Erwin

[Ninja Dodo]

I once decided that social science is really a form of geology in that its theories deal with layers in society, but that's just silly...


I really like your artwork, btw, Tamz. What sort of techniques do you use? I tend to only do sketches myself.