[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Jelena

Theoretically, not directed at Kingsjester:
But a written debate is imo more conscious than a spoken. Words may pop out of your mouth, but writing them takes longer (for me anyway) and you also have to push the submit button. This gives you time to actually check what you wrote. I believe that a fairly polite contribution in a debate is listened to more than pie throwing or 'von-oben'-attitude.

Sure, you can check what you wrote. But it's not easy to spot something you might just view as a voiced opinion, and is, in fact, readable as an insult - and even if you do spot it, it's very hard to change without lying, instead.

Additionally, I try not to edit my posts. I type what I think. I find it gives one more incentive to truly become a better person if one does get a backlash from it. If you're widely accepted because you never tell the truth... well... is it you that's being accepted, at all? I'd rather be what people see me as, through and through.

Originally Posted by Jelena

He did, and thus not deserve the replies thereafter. (just to clarify that I don't think anyone deserves shit after an apology)

Ooh. Sorry. I did misunderstand. My apologies.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Jelena

I have a hard time to understand why anyone need to be honest/direct to the point of being rude.

Well, for my part, I value honesty much higher than politeness. I don't need to be direct- I prefer to. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to cover up their feelings, really. So people will respect you a little more, sure, but they won't know you as much, which seems more important.

But a written debate is imo more conscious than a spoken. Words may pop out of your mouth, but writing them takes longer (for me anyway) and you also have to push the submit button. This gives you time to actually check what you wrote.

Personally (Of course I can only speak for myself.), I use that time to try and make myself heard as clearly as possible, not to try and cover up what I'd really like to say.

[Sage]

Hey, I enjoy sophomoric humor as much as the next guy...probably even more. But when I get criticized for indulging in it I don't start quoting the classics of English Literature to prove that fart jokes are "Literature". They're not, and comparing one's own web comic to the works of Chaucer smacks of extreme arrogance, particularly in the last panel where Mr. Kurtz insinuates that anyone who doesn't think fart jokes are "Literature" is in need of further education. For that matter the works of Shakespeare are rife with ribald humor, but those off-color jokes provide levity and contrast within the stories and aren't the entire point of the works. That doesn't mean fart jokes are any less funny to me.

As anyone who has read any of Kingz' posts will testify, he can be direct to the point of rudeness. That is his way of expressing himself and it seems to be born out of passionate opinions. While I may not always agree with his opinions or the way he expresses them, I have to respect his chutzpah and apparent fearlessness in speaking directly from the heart without preamble or editing for politeness. Unfortunately this unvarnished method of expression isn't appreciated by everyone, and some people get caught up in how things are said rather than what is said.

Kingz, you say what you think in clear terms. I appreciate that, but it pisses some people off. Whose opinion matters to you more, the few people who like that you cut through all the BS or the many who are shocked by your candor?

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Sage

Whose opinion matters to you more, the few people who like that you cut through all the BS or the many who are shocked by your candor?

I like the opinions of people who can hold a middle ground between candor and humility and be respected by both camps. I very obviously cannot.

[pinkgothic]

@Sage:

I still don't consider it a serious "comparison" like you choose to view it. Nor do I understand why you view it as such. Your post just now has done nothing to clue me in - mind you, not that this is a problem in any way, but in case you were aspiring to that, I'm afraid it didn't work.

[Sage]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

I like the opinions of people who can hold a middle ground between candor and humility and be respected by both camps. I very obviously cannot.

So you're not a glib politician. Do you want to be?

[Sage]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

@Sage:

I still don't consider it a serious "comparison" like you choose to view it. Nor do I understand why you view it as such. Your post just now has done nothing to clue me in - mind you, not that this is a problem in any way, but in case you were aspiring to that, I'm afraid it didn't work.

Eh, that's just how the posted comic struck me. I could go on and on (and it appears I did in the post you mentioned ), but it was a gut reaction on my my part and it may not be shared by anyone else.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Sage

So you're not a glib politician. Do you want to be?

It's not that. Politicians have neither candor nor humility. I just want to charge a little more, uh, tactfully at my windmills.

[Sage]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

It's not that. Politicians have neither candor nor humility. I just want to charge a little more, uh, tactfully at my windmills.

Hehehe! Well put!
As someone who is accused of tactlessness on an almost daily basis, I'm not sure how much help I can be in that area.
Maybe this'll help: After you've typed a post but before you've sent it, read through it as if someone is saying those words to you. If you are the least bit offended, then re-word the parts that bother you.

[MoriartyL]

I don't usually care for PvP, but I've got to say I find this one funny.

You guys are taking it much too seriously.

[Jelena]

To start with I wrote all this, and got logged out So I had to re-write everything.

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

If you're widely accepted because you never tell the truth... well... is it you that's being accepted, at all?

Hrm...Perhaps I'm being naive (at my age ), but I still hope there are ways of telling the truth, what I really think and feel without turning into insults and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Mory

Well, for my part, I value honesty much higher than politeness. I don't need to be direct- I prefer to. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to cover up their feelings, really.

I wrote honest/direct to the point of being rude. If a person can't express feelings without being rude he/she really should look inside and figure out where the anger comes from.
I too prefer honesty and I'm a direct person face to face.

Originally Posted by Sage

Unfortunately this unvarnished method of expression isn't appreciated by everyone, and some people get caught up in how things are said rather than what is said.

That would me me here.
The way something is said is also important to the message, even the written word. It's more obvious face to face though when the stressing of words can change the meaning of what's said.
In my first post I asked Kingz what was in it for him when using that language. Obviously he wasn't happy with it in retrospect. Surely he could have chosen other words with equal candour to give his point of view.

I went into this thread because I think words are important. I guess some things written on this forum would most likely not have been said face to face. I prefer to be somewhat polite in respect to the person I'm debating with whether I like the person/point of view or not.

[Kingzjester]

Edit: this is a reply to Sage: The problem is, even when I look at it all detached-like before posting, even when I realize I am totally and hopelessly wrong, I think to myself, This would be a really interesting thing for this dude to say. It shows a lot of hubris and arrogance. I wouldn't mind reading about this character in a book or seeing him die a horrible death in a play.

[SCRUGAtes13]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

They tried to burn me... either way, I don't need to be burned to come to regret my actions.

cool, zombies ate my neighbors!!! your not a geek/troll/whatever their calling you people now days, your one of us!!

[Sage]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

Edit: this is a reply to Sage: The problem is, even when I look at it all detached-like before posting, even when I realize I am totally and hopelessly wrong, I think to myself, This would be a really interesting thing for this dude to say. It shows a lot of hubris and arrogance. I wouldn't mind reading about this character in a book or seeing him die a horrible death in a play.

Perhaps then you're overcompensating for being pathologically polite and soft-spoken in real life?
But I'm just a redneck lowlife. What the heck do I know?

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Jelena

To start with I wrote all this, and got logged out So I had to re-write everything.

Ouch! I hate it when that happens

Originally Posted by Jelena

Hrm...Perhaps I'm being naive (at my age ), but I still hope there are ways of telling the truth, what I really think and feel without turning into insults and whatnot.

Well, of course! I'm just saying if I have to choose between being honest and being polite for some reason, I'll rather be honest. But if I can be both (and, like I pointed out, notice that I'm not being both, which isn't that easy), awesome.

[Lee in Limbo]

It's a dicey issue. You find yourself confronted with an event or an opinion that really just sticks in your craw no matter how you try to dislodge it, and the only thing you can think to do is hit Reply and see what comes out.

I try to be polite about these things, and I don't patronize quite as much as I used to (although I think I can sense a few sets of eyes looking at me incredulously; no really, I've mellowed), but there are certain hot topic buttons, certain creators, and certain events that just set me off, and it's a graceless battle to reign it in.

If it means anything to you, I have friends who keep pimping the PVP at me, and I keep walking away. Kurtz is neither brilliant nor funny to me, and I do find it difficult to rate his works with what I tend to think the Eisners (or even the Harveys, for that matter) stand for. But then, the comic industry is in another credibility slump, and I think we're seeing that in webcomics right now too.

I just keep reminding myself that there are still some truly brilliant things being done out there, and if it takes a little longer to find them, and if you have to start ignoring the award winners to find it, at least the good stuff is still out there somewhere. And really, causes (even hopeless ones) are so much cooler when they're mostly your own, anyway.

Try not to let the cult of personality surrounding a mediocre cartoonist who writes the Dilbert of internet gamer culture get you down. And try to keep that joke about arguing on the internet in mind. Won't alleviate your guilt, but it might help you to ease off the accelerator before you dive in. Sometimes, absolutely nothing you can say or do can ever come to any good, and really, walking away is the best solution for all concerned.

Two cents from a guy who pisses off plenty himself. YMMV.